dabrilloman:Bottom line - if you are bowling in a house that runs a "PBA Experience" league that decides NOT to cetify as "sport comlpiant," (for WHATEVER reason) then YOU, my friend, are CHEATING - your ENTIRE LEAGUE is CHEATING.
That's ridiculous.
If you knew what it takes to certify a sport condition, you wouldn't have made this comment.
kellyv:All it takes is a little effort, but we all know that's too much for most of the instant gratification generation.
LOL.
You are not cheating if you dont certify a sport condition league as a sport league..... that is ridiculous to say.... the USBC should have been pro active about this happening and taken a stance in the RULES DEPARTMENT. The friggin 40 frame game people asked this question LAST YEAR.... the Roto Grip Challenge people who made the rules for their tournament have a rule that state you CANNOT drop 15 or more pins from the previous year............. all of this could have been avoided and hopefully the USBC DQ's this guy..... or change the prize fund for the Classified division (which I believe could be done with NO PROBLEM at all) ... make the top 20 or whatever places pay $600 each then all of those who cash in that division (in the top spots) would HAVE TO DO all their paperwork based just from their Nationals scores if nothing else. It is just too bad the USBC knows this is a problem, they will change the green sheet questions next year and won't discuss this here with everyone, maybe legal issues by doing so,,,,, but even in hindsight, the prize fund CAN be changed.... I can guarantee the exact number of entries from the prize fund that is posted will not be.... therefore the prize fund will have to change anyway..... do it the correct way!
As for the response to this..... it isnt that much work to cerity your league as a Sport league... come on... 10-15 minutes of running tapes is not that much work.
Full_Dump!: As for the response to this..... it isnt that much work to cerity your league as a Sport league... come on... 10-15 minutes of running tapes is not that much work.
Please stop making yourselves comidians.
Reading this, I would be totally surprised if you have any affiliation to a bowling center, or center operations. If that is all that the general public thinks is what makes a sport league happen, then USBC and its associations have done a poor job in communicating.
To open your eyes, make a visit with some center management and talk in depth about sport league certification and what the CENTER needs to do to accomidate it. Ask them what needs to be done for a late league. Additionally, ask them what type of response they would get from their patronage if it was indeed certified as sport and that all participants would need to pop for the USBC sport membership. Then post your findings.
Is there anyone who doesn't feel that the issue of "renegade Sport Leagues" needs to be addressed in at least some way(s)?
In my opinion, there needs to be SOME WAY to address the issue of a bowler who competes in such a league (especially if it is his/her ONLY certified league competition). And if, indeed, it can be determined that such a league is putting out a Sport Shot -- whether or not the league is USBC-certified as a Sport League -- all bowlers within that league should be subject to average adjustment as per the Sport Average Conversion Table.
Does anyone disagree with that?
MightyFish:Does anyone disagree with that?
Applying a 'one size fits all' simple solution to a multifaceted, complex question? It would be best to first get the right question, instead of starting with an inadequate answer.
Dear JohnW:
Do you feel that ANYTHING should be done with regard to averages compiled in "renegade Sport Leagues"?
Short answer: no; as non-certified sport leagues are not the problem.
JohnW: Short answer: no; as non-certified sport leagues are not the problem.
So I guess it would be OK for me to start a league - certify the league just like any other standard league in the country. But instead of bowling on the normal house shot, we are going to put out the US Open pattern for the entire season and our averages are all going to be much lower than they were last year. But because it takes so much more effort and money to do this legitimately, within the rules with all the tapes and lane checks, etc..., we are not going to tell anyone. We are just going to go about our business and use our lower averages without any adjustment.
And I guess it would be OKAY by you, huh JohnW, not a problem.
dgarren:So I guess it would be OK for me to start a league - certify the league just like any other standard league in the country. But instead of bowling on the normal house shot, we are going to put out the US Open pattern for the entire season and our averages are all going to be much lower than they were last year. But because it takes so much more effort and money to do this legitimately, within the rules with all the tapes and lane checks, etc..., we are not going to tell anyone. We are just going to go about our business and use our lower averages without any adjustment.
Differences in conditions across the nation is nothing new. In 2006, Orlando, then USBC Roger Dalkin stated to the audience "All averages are not created equally." He wasn't talking about sport averages, but regular conditions. If you're blind to that fact, you really ought to get out more often.
It would be improbable to think that every center, everywhere, could keep the same condition and maintenance. Proprietors have different goals and different philosophies. Maintenance are kept at different levels. Weather and indoor conditions fluctuate. Actual components of the lane are different. Oil brands, dispensing methods, and quantities are different. There are too many factors to list.
Like I said, uncertified sport leagues are not the problem. They are just another element of consideration. Luckily, our safeguard is the Tournament Management and staff. I think that too many don't give them enough credit.
If you think you can talk your local bowling center in laying down a tough shot for their customers, please do so. Personally, I have encountered many work-related injuries, and have enough challenge on the regular shot I come up on.
JohnW:Like I said, uncertified sport leagues are not the problem. They are just another element of consideration. Luckily, our safeguard is the Tournament Management and staff. I think that too many don't give them enough credit.
There's a good chance that Jeff Kistler might agree with you on that statement.
JohnW: dgarren:So I guess it would be OK for me to start a league - certify the league just like any other standard league in the country. But instead of bowling on the normal house shot, we are going to put out the US Open pattern for the entire season and our averages are all going to be much lower than they were last year. But because it takes so much more effort and money to do this legitimately, within the rules with all the tapes and lane checks, etc..., we are not going to tell anyone. We are just going to go about our business and use our lower averages without any adjustment. Differences in conditions across the nation is nothing new. In 2006, Orlando, then USBC Roger Dalkin stated to the audience "All averages are not created equally." He wasn't talking about sport averages, but regular conditions. If you're blind to that fact, you really ought to get out more often. It would be improbable to think that every center, everywhere, could keep the same condition and maintenance. Proprietors have different goals and different philosophies. Maintenance are kept at different levels. Weather and indoor conditions fluctuate. Actual components of the lane are different. Oil brands, dispensing methods, and quantities are different. There are too many factors to list. Like I said, uncertified sport leagues are not the problem. They are just another element of consideration. Luckily, our safeguard is the Tournament Management and staff. I think that too many don't give them enough credit. If you think you can talk your local bowling center in laying down a tough shot for their customers, please do so. Personally, I have encountered many work-related injuries, and have enough challenge on the regular shot I come up on.
f. Bowlers that have both a USBC SPORT LEAGUE AVERAGE and a
standard league average from the same season shall use the highest of the
two averages.
Any bowler who has ONLY A USBC SPORT LEAGUE AVERAGE must submit and
use his/her adjusted Sport Bowling league average utilizing the USBC Average
Adjustment Scale. The scale can be found on bowl.com, or on Page 77 of the USBC
Playing Rules.
When I started this Post I took rule (f) as the bible (above) and unless there is another rule stipulating it has to be a certified sport shot ( maybe there is and one that I am not aware of, and my apologies if there is one). Bowler K was within his rights of doing what he did (right or wrong, conscience or no conscience), therfore the USBC will do nothing, until there is an amendment or modification made to the rule(s), consistant and in agreement with each other rule that broaches the sportshot question. Maybe next year....
In my humble opinion there is not a quick and easy fix to the situation and everyone has expressed their opinions as well. I don't think the USBC will turn it's back on this issue since there are so many concerns with these numerous threads. Lets just give them the benifit of the doubt that they will do there best to rectifyit and meke it better the next time around. Besides there will be something else to discuss next year I am sure.
Good luck to all and thanks for the imputs......
em
Just remember, it's all about the money, everyone wants a piece, from the manufactures, to the bowlers and everyone in between..... isn't America great..... one of the few sports the has the USA making equipment for other countries instead of the other way around..... live the dream while you can...
After watching two golfers call penalties on themselves at the Masters this last weekend...it makes me wish we had some of that kind of repect for the game of bowling and our fellow competitors!!!
