"comidians" LMAO..now that is a good one.

 The general public could really care less what it takes..... the most work that it takes is getting the machine set up and running the tapes.... I wouldnt be totally surprised that you work for either the USBC or a bowling alley.... obviously some work would totally torture you.

 and MKIA please tell me why the 40 Frame Game folks asked last year (not sure of this year because I have quit bowling that tournament) if your league was on sport like conditions and not sport certified. And then finish your ramblings with why the USBC couldnt follow suit on such a question or questions about averages dropping several pins in a single year. Since YKIA please inform us all about the problem that has risen from laziness and being reactive instead of proactive from our leaders....

 

p.s. The guy knew he was cheating so to say and should be removed from his position on his local associations board, IMO.

 

sigh.. another worthless post that complains.  If the object is to try and flame, please blow harder on the fire.

Scuk it up and move on.  This thread looks pretty dead.

JohnW:

sigh.. another worthless post that complains.  If the object is to try and flame, please blow harder on the fire.

Scuk it up and move on.  This thread looks pretty dead.

That was quite a meaningful post, thanks for such an impressive addition to the conversation.  

This thread may be dead to you but not to me.  I will continue to post my views on this topic until the end of the Tournament in the hopes that USBC will make a better effort to try and protect the integrity of the Classified Division in the future.

Integrity and Sportsmanship, JohnW.  May not be important to you, but they are to me.

   

dgarren:

JohnW:

sigh.. another worthless post that complains.  If the object is to try and flame, please blow harder on the fire.

Scuk it up and move on.  This thread looks pretty dead.

That was quite a meaningful post, thanks for such an impressive addition to the conversation.  

This thread may be dead to you but not to me.  I will continue to post my views on this topic until the end of the Tournament in the hopes that USBC will make a better effort to try and protect the integrity of the Classified Division in the future.

Integrity and Sportsmanship, JohnW.  May not be important to you, but they are to me.

   

Have you posted a complaint to the USBC in writing other than this forum?

dgarren:

That was quite a meaningful post, thanks for such an impressive addition to the conversation.  

 

This thread is now becoming a bantering back and forth.. a prelude to a big flame war.  

My input began with the subject of non-certified sport conditions.. which I believe are not the problem.   There was no emotion involved with my statements.  I make those statements based on my experiences in the bowling industry, with bowling associations, and with bowlers.  If you disagree, fine; NBD.  

I disagree with those that state it is simple to run such a league, and that only 10-15 minutes are required.  Obviously, those people have not run one.  Also, those statements most likely come from industry outsiders that don't look at the bottom line of a business. 

There is nothing wrong with Integrity and Sportsmanship; it's Bitterness and Ugliness that appear to be your problems DG.  There are rules to go by for complaints and protests regarding participation and scores.  I suggest that if there are complaints, follow the procedures provided by our (USBC) rules and let those in charge handle the situation.    The forums are a good place for discussion, but is inadequate to handle protests and hearings.

 With nothing new to add to this subject, (unless you call flaming new), it does look like this thread is dead.

 

 

John W,

I believe you miss the point of this forum board. This forum board is for a discussion of ideas and thoughts on a particular subject usually determined by the heading of that subject. The title is: Was it really cheating..... not: This is a dead thread and let it go. If integrity of the game of bowling and what it represents doesn't mean anything to you, then find another board to post on. We, who care about the game and very knowledgeable bowlers i.e. EAGLE WINNERS will not be badgered into quitting. Its your turn now, FIND ANOTHER BOARD TO POST ON.

Joe,  I'm  reading...  post something new that hasn't already been said instead of churning the old stuff.

 Dear JohnW:

I, for one, wouldn't begin to say that it's simple (requiring only 10-15 minutes, etc.) to properly run and conduct a USBC-certified Sport League.

However, I DO consider averages compiled in a non-certified Sport League potentially problematical IF NOTHING IS DONE to address the issue.

If a bowler -- ANY bowler -- establishes an average in a "renegade Sport League" with no provisions (or "legality") for potential rerate, it certainly can lead to UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for some players.

Let's consider a bowler who enters a "renegade Sport League"  with no "ulterior motives" whatsoever and who, perhaps, doesn't even have a concept of how lane conditions can differ. And let's assume that the bowler has the ability to average 210+ on a normal house shot (and, perhaps, is normally able to average 210+ in most of the tournaments he/she enters). IS IT "FAIR" or logical that such bowler could establish an average of 175 in a "renegade" league and take that average to a tournament WITHOUT BEING RERATED, or without anything whatsoever in place to limit such happenstance(s)?

Well!!!!!! Maybe I can revive this topic.

I wrote this guy from bowlingfordumdums.com and he told me some interesting stuff via e-mail.

This sandbagging issue for one has been a problem for a long time.

Did you know that there is a sandbagger database by USBC and sandbaggers still slip through because of various reasons unknown.

I heard that Matt along with other knowledgeable individuals are on a commitee and knew about the various problems with sandbagging last year and still nothing was done.

The mentality as a whole is too re-rate the person who cheats after the fact and ignore the situation or sweep it under the rug.

Well it is my opinion and I understand why USBC has had so many changes to begin with. People are not doing there jobs. Plain and simple. Maybe the tournament department is next to get an overhaul. 2 years in a row with negative publicity.

If the tournament manager is making 150k + a year you would think he would care about doing his job  and do something geez.

I guess I have a question for you Matt, honestly do you think that sandbagging is good for the game. I can bet that your responses to everyone on this message boards is too hide what you truly feel and what you must say to  really ignore the situation.

Maybe things will get better. But if they have done nothing about this sandbagging situation like dum-dum says chances are it will be ignored for another 5 years. Huh Matt!

How can I apply for a job with USBC. Darn it I have too much honor and integrity for such a position. I guess I'm out!!!!!!  M.M.

 

 

JohnW:

dgarren:

That was quite a meaningful post, thanks for such an impressive addition to the conversation.  

 

This thread is now becoming a bantering back and forth.. a prelude to a big flame war.  

My input began with the subject of non-certified sport conditions.. which I believe are not the problem.   There was no emotion involved with my statements.  I make those statements based on my experiences in the bowling industry, with bowling associations, and with bowlers.  If you disagree, fine; NBD.  

I disagree with those that state it is simple to run such a league, and that only 10-15 minutes are required.  Obviously, those people have not run one.  Also, those statements most likely come from industry outsiders that don't look at the bottom line of a business. 

There is nothing wrong with Integrity and Sportsmanship; it's Bitterness and Ugliness that appear to be your problems DG.  There are rules to go by for complaints and protests regarding participation and scores.  I suggest that if there are complaints, follow the procedures provided by our (USBC) rules and let those in charge handle the situation.    The forums are a good place for discussion, but is inadequate to handle protests and hearings.

 With nothing new to add to this subject, (unless you call flaming new), it does look like this thread is dead.

 

 

Come on, JohnW, why do you feel you need to continue to up the ante? I find it interesting that the bantering and bickering back and forth did not begin until you showed up.  I have gone back and looked at this thread to see how we have gotten to the brink of a "Flame War" and notice that, whether there was emotion or not, EVERY ONE of your posts has some form of condescension.  Look in the mirror and you will know the answer.   

Now, I am not an industry "insider," but that does not disqualify me for the discussion.  As I see it, the topic really doesn't have anything to do with the economics of the situation.  As you can see by the headline, "Was he really cheating,"  that this topic is for discussion on whether or not a person cheated in the USBC Open Tournament.  The context in which cheating is being debated to this point, has to do with whether or not there should be limits for how hard a shot can be laid down in a standard league.  How far do you push legality before it becomes un-ethical?

Http://bowlingfordumdums.com says a slope rating can fix all the problems but they are wasting money on research  that will never ever fix the game.  Then our dues will go up, go figure. I work at a restaurant and may need to go get a second job to pay for the dues increase and then get nothing for it. Ha! Ha! It's really not funny.

JohnW,

I have read this thread and the several other threads in regards to this situation and bowler. Personally I think you are the only one on this thread who is looking to "try and flame" as you put it.

You make it hard not to respond to you in any other manner after reading your posts and your thoughts.

 I think your post where you stated that non-certified sport leagues are not the problem is ludicrous (and the reason you are being attacked the way you are). I understand your point that from house to house, city to city, state to state you will cetainly find a huge variety of conditions. However, if a proprietor purposely creates a league and purposely oils his establishments lanes in a manner that is equivalent to a sport condition for that league(and vastly different from all other leagues in that establishment), but chooses not to have that league certified, then that is clearly a problem.

 

But what would be the difference if he bowled on the 2nd or even 3rd shift at night on 35 yr old wood lanes.  Trust me, I could average way more on a sport compliant condition than china that is 2 shifts old!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You have to come up with a system of what you have done in the past.  I.E.-Filthy says your last 5 years tournament average.  Theres a good start.

Brunswick847:

However, if a proprietor purposely creates a league and purposely oils his establishments lanes in a manner that is equivalent to a sport condition for that league(and vastly different from all other leagues in that establishment), but chooses not to have that league certified, then that is clearly a problem.

There are a lot of assumptions here.  Not only would you have to find the right proprietor, but some customers to fill such a league.  Depending on the resources at the center, there is no guarantee that the shot would indeed pass as sport.  Did you know that if the league followed a certified sport league and there was no alteration to the lanes; based on today's sport rules, it would not even qualify as sport and would need to be certified as regular.   Currently, there are some center's leagues that are operating under grandfathered rules, but those are due to run out at the end of the 07-08 season.

MightyFish:

And let's assume that the bowler has the ability to average 210+ on a normal house shot (and, perhaps, is normally able to average 210+ in most of the tournaments he/she enters). IS IT "FAIR" or logical that such bowler could establish an average of 175 in a "renegade" league

First, if it's agreed that we can trust the adjustment chart for Sport Bowling, reading backward, a 210 average bowler should be averaging 196.  I'm sure that there is some statistical error that could be applied, but the fact is that even at a lesser 190 average, the assumed bowler would not qualify for the Classified division. 

Which leads us to the question; why is this bowler at a 175?  If the bowler is doing the best that can be done, should he quit and join an easier league to appease others?

 

dgarren:

The context in which cheating is being debated to this point, has to do with whether or not there should be limits for how hard a shot can be laid down in a standard league.  How far do you push legality before it becomes un-ethical?

Just to be clear; most of the respondents are upset because someone normally plays on a shot that is tougher than the one others might play on, but that tougher shot is still within the rules because it meets the 3 unit rule, while it may or may not meet the minimum qualifications of a certified sport shot.   Further, those that do play on the tougher shot, may get an advantage in tournament play.

 Perhaps the anger should be against the props that choose to give 'bumper bowling' to their customers, as they are cheating those bowlers out of actually doing anything for their scores and raising averages artificially.   My question is, is the true average of a bowler one that a prop 'helps' with on a forgiving condition, or the average that the bowler will need to stay focused on and execute shots properly?

JohnW:

 

Which leads us to the question; why is this bowler at a 175? 

 

 

You tell us why. Here he is....................................

Jeff R. Kistler Member ID: 1-503

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