I bowl on a four man league that is allowed to carry a fifth man for whatever reason...alternating weeks, in case someone can't bowl, etc. We have a team with a fifth man that has bowled for everyone on that team at one point. One bowler (bowler #1) from that team decided to have some elective surgery done and was expected to be out for almost two months. Bowler #5 took that place and bowled every week. During this time, bowler #2 became injured and so this team decided that bowler #5 would bowl for him because his average was higher than bowler #1s (60 pins higher) therefore giving them a higher handicap. My understanding is that because two people are out, the team needs to use the average of the person with the highest amount of games (bowler #3) and the fifth person would bowl for the other. There is nothing in our bylaws regarding this and our secretary has no clue. Thanks for any help!
105/2
If two members are absent and only one substitute is obtained, which absentee score is used?
According to Rule 104a, Item 1, the team captain is responsible for the eligibility of the team and determines whom the substitute will replace. First, the captain determines whom the substitute will replace and then the absentee score is determined.
When the team has a limited roster, the process is easy. The captain selects the player the substitute replaces, and the absentee score of the other player is used.
When a team has additional players on its roster, the captain decides whom the substitute is replacing. Whoever the substitute is replacing, the absentee score for that absent member cannot be used. According to Rule 105, Item e(2), the absentee score of the player with the most games is used for the other player. If two absentee scores are needed after the substitute is in place, the absentee score of the absentee with the next highest number of games is used and when two absent members have the same number of games, the lower absentee score is used. (See CAQ #118d/1 for cap information.)
So ultimately, the amount of games a bowler has doesn't matter when placing the substitute. A sub can bowl for anyone. Thank you!
jwsbowler:You may want to re-read the post from Cicada49. The number of games does make a difference. You have to use the bowler with the most games as the "blind".
No, The captain decides who the sub is bowling for and then he/she goes from there. If the sub is bowling for the person with the most games, then that person's absentee score could not be used.
Sorry, but you are wrong... When you have more than 2 people out and only one sub, you must use the blind for the bowler with the most games first.
I was editting my post with the following before I was "TIMED OUT"...
Here is rule 105:
e. An absented score is to be used when a member is absent and a substitute is not obtained. The following provisions apply unless otherwise provided by league rule:
1. the absentee score for each game shall be based on the absent member's current average less 10 pins. In handicap leagues, the handicap shall be based on the absent member's current average
2. Teams with additional players on their roster shall use the absentee score of the absent player with the:
a) MOST GAMES BOWLED... This is the rule that has to be followed...
b) Lowest absentee score when the absenteed have the same number of games bowled.
c) Next highest number of games bowled when two scores are needed...
So, based on 2a... the team with two missing bowlers used the sub, and then has to use the bowler with the highest number of games first... It makes no difference who the sub is "technically bowling for"... the bowler with the most games has to be the absent bowler.
Ok from what I understand there are bowlers 1-5. Bowler 5 is sub, bowler 1&2 are out injured. Don't understand where bowler 3 is in the mix. From reading Rule 105e. Bowler 5 should take the place of the lower number of games bowled by either bowler 1 or bowler 2. So Bowler 5 esentially takes the place of the absent bowler with the least games bowled.
I.E. Bowler 1 has 30 games, bowler 2 has 27 games. Score wise bowler 1 would be the absentee score entered.
bowler 3 should not even be in the equation unless he is absent.
Brian
Sorry about that. There is no bowler #3. It was a typo. Bowler #2 has the higher average and the most amount of games bowled so bowler #5 should replace him.
Thanks for everyone's help!
phukauf: Sorry about that. There is no bowler #3. It was a typo. Bowler #2 has the higher average and the most amount of games bowled so bowler #5 should replace him. Thanks for everyone's help!
NO NO NO NO!!!!! Keep things simple!!!
Your lineup is 4 bowlers. You have two regular bowlers and a sub or three bowlers...thus you need one bowler's absentee scores... You take the bowler with the most games as your absentee scores. Based on your comment above, you are replacing the WRONG BOWLER. It's got nothing to do with average, unless both bowlers that you need to choose from have the same amount of games bowled. Then, in that situation, you take the bowler with the lower average as your absent score.
Again, just think of it this way. You have your lineup of 3 bowlers and need one absent score. With the other two bowlers not bowling, you take the one with the most games and use their absentee score.
You are not replacing a bowler. You are entering your lineup for the week. You have 3 bowlers, you need a fourth for absent...take the bowler with the highest games bowled as your absent bowler. SIMPLE!!!!!!
Example:
.....................games.....avg
Bowler 1............30........167
Bowler 2............27........168
Bowler 3............33........180
Bowler 4............33........174
Bowler 5............15........165
Okay, scenario #1: bowler 1 and 2 are out... You would take bowler 1 as your absent score as they have the most games between bowler 1 and bowler 2.
Scenario #2: Now, say bowler 3 and 4 are out... Your lineup would be bowler 1, 2, 5 and bowler 4's absent score. Bowler 4 and 3 have the same number of games, but bowler 4s average is lower.
again, it does not make any difference who the bowler is subbing for or replacing. You must get that out of your head. Your lineup is 4 bowlers...and need to follow the absentee scoring set in RULE 105
I am assuming too that they are talking about having to use a blind score for one of the two bowlers - however if you use the blind of the lower average you lose pins and if that is what the captain opted to do then that is his loss. For instance if my handicap is 90% of 220 and I have two team members one with an average of 140 and the other with an average of 190 both would lose 10 pins for their blind score. Bowler # 1 gets 72 pins HC with 130 blind for a total score of 202. Bowler #2 gets 27 pins HC but a blind score of 180 which is a total score 207. Obviously you lose 5 pins if you used the lower score to try and get more handicap. If the captain would want to short himself pins on the blind why is the other team complaining? If a sub was used for both and no blind score then there is no issue.
mom2tcdx2: I am assuming too that they are talking about having to use a blind score for one of the two bowlers - however if you use the blind of the lower average you lose pins and if that is what the captain opted to do then that is his loss. For instance if my handicap is 90% of 220 and I have two team members one with an average of 140 and the other with an average of 190 both would lose 10 pins for their blind score. Bowler # 1 gets 72 pins HC with 130 blind for a total score of 202. Bowler #2 gets 27 pins HC but a blind score of 180 which is a total score 207. Obviously you lose 5 pins if you used the lower score to try and get more handicap. If the captain would want to short himself pins on the blind why is the other team complaining? If a sub was used for both and no blind score then there is no issue.
There is no choices to be made... You have to follow rule 105e part 2a... and if needed 2b for more than one bowler on your roster if you have a choice. He has to follow the rule. Read my example. It spells it out. By your wording here, if I have a bowler at 190 and another at 140, both have the same amount of games bowled... by rule, I have to use the absent score for the 140 bowler... There is no other way to go. Yes, it will produce a "lower score", but you have to follow the rule.
So, we're going totally ignore that in that same USBC rule book, it states that first that captain decides whom the sub is bowling for and then you decide which average to use for the other absent member.
Do you get to pick which rule to follow. I am getting a head ache. Maybe if the league sat down and discussed this at the by-laws meeting they wouldn't have this problem. We follow the rule jw cites except we use the bowler with the most games, If they have the same we use the higher of the 2 bowlers. In most cases it won't make a bit of difference.
D.M.: Do you get to pick which rule to follow. I am getting a head ache. Maybe if the league sat down and discussed this at the by-laws meeting they wouldn't have this problem. We follow the rule jw cites except we use the bowler with the most games, If they have the same we use the higher of the 2 bowlers. In most cases it won't make a bit of difference.
Thanks DM... your by-law super seeds the rule book... I'm not sure what problem Cicada49 has with this.
