Not sure if this is the right place to post this.....but I would really appreciate some opinions, thoughts, and/or comments on a subject in our league rules.
Our rules state that we will play our seasons in quarters - We bowl 30 weeks. The season is divided into quarters. 7 weeks, 8 weeks, 8 weeks, then 7 weeks. We bowl as usual. At the end of the quarter - whomever is in first place has won that quarter. No problem. BUT if your team has won a previous quarter you may not win another quarter. The quarter will be given to the next team in line who has not won a quarter.
The goal supposedly is to have 4 teams in the roll off . I understand the thinking behind wanting 4 teams so that no one team will dominate each season (if they can) ... but too often a team may win two or more quarters which have to be given to a team who didn't truly win outright. So, the scenario can be in the roll off - you may have 2 or 3 teams that have actually taken a quarter but you may have a team who hasn't won one. That team can come in on the rolloff and win the season. The winner in the roll off is determined by the highest total pins (plus handicap).
My feeling is it is very UNFAIR to the teams that have truly won a quarter to lose everything they worked for all season to a team who hasn't won. Being that we use only the total pins on one night of bowling to establish a winner doesn't seem fair to me. I feel in order to actually be in the roll off - the team must have won a quarter.
Thoughts? Opinions??? I would appreciate all.
If that is the league rule then go by it. Next season either address it in the meeting or live with it. Your next choice is to bowl a different league. Never know the reasoning behind the rule. Lets just say there are only 3 teams that win a quarter and you was the 4th that had a chance to roll in it, how would you feel on that then. This will get into the handicap issue also, why should the team win, they had 50 pins over everyone in handicap. It all boils down to they try to make it a even playing field one way or another. Reguardless of who is in the roll-offs, the best team should prevail.
Brian
Thanks for your input. I guess that's what I thought - try to get the rules changed at the meeting in August 2008 - BUT it's gonna sound like "sour grapes" ---
Your example - 3 teams won the quarters ......and we get in because we didn't win but were handed a quarter - that did happen to our team a few years ago. While it was fun to bowl in the roll off because we came in 2nd place......it was a very hallow victory when we actually won the roll off. I didn't feel we deserved to be there - we hadn't really won a quarter.
This year a team that never won a quarter, was in 3rd place on the last night of bowling (the teams placing first and second had already won quarters) the 3rd place team gets hot that night and wins for the whole year. I guess I don't feel that is fair at all.
I would like to see the rules changed but I can just hear the comments. As far as handicapping - really shouldn't be an issue -- that, I feel, levels the playing field. I guess in professional sports they have 'wild cards' -- this is not professional sports here, supposedly for fun -- but it's not fun when the third place position gets in a roll off by default.........and then wins. I feel anyone can win on any given day - but how do you think you would feel when you have done good all year and then you have a bad night - i.e., some team members don't bowl average that particular night - and you lose it because of that? Can't win all the time but I guess I feel it shouldn't come down to 3 games for an entire season.
I really appreciate your thoughts - I take away from it that we should change the rules, if possible. I enjoy this league except for this rule.....it's fun but it's also competitive so finding another league for me is not an option.
Thanks again!!!
I don't like the rule that says total pins with hdcap. It gives the higher ave team the advantage. Your team could win the 1st 2 games then get killed the last and lose. In reality in a 7 point system you should win 4-3.
BRBA: Not sure if this is the right place to post this.....but I would really appreciate some opinions, thoughts, and/or comments on a subject in our league rules. Our rules state that we will play our seasons in quarters - We bowl 30 weeks. The season is divided into quarters. 7 weeks, 8 weeks, 8 weeks, then 7 weeks. We bowl as usual. At the end of the quarter - whomever is in first place has won that quarter. No problem. BUT if your team has won a previous quarter you may not win another quarter. The quarter will be given to the next team in line who has not won a quarter. The goal supposedly is to have 4 teams in the roll off . I understand the thinking behind wanting 4 teams so that no one team will dominate each season (if they can) ... but too often a team may win two or more quarters which have to be given to a team who didn't truly win outright. So, the scenario can be in the roll off - you may have 2 or 3 teams that have actually taken a quarter but you may have a team who hasn't won one. That team can come in on the rolloff and win the season. The winner in the roll off is determined by the highest total pins (plus handicap). My feeling is it is very UNFAIR to the teams that have truly won a quarter to lose everything they worked for all season to a team who hasn't won. Being that we use only the total pins on one night of bowling to establish a winner doesn't seem fair to me. I feel in order to actually be in the roll off - the team must have won a quarter. Thoughts? Opinions??? I would appreciate all.
1) i don't believe that the teams that have "truly" won a quarter "lose everything" if they don't win the roll-off. maybe i'm wrong, but i just don't see it that way. it's not like a team that got second place cheated their way into the roll-off. they followed the rules, won some points and got lucky. i don't see the issue here. yeah, they got into the roll-off because they were second best, but what do you want? do you just want league champion determined without a roll-off? if that's what you want to accomplish, make a motion at your next organizational meeting. write it out, make your argument and see if you can make it work. the worst that can happen is the league votes against it.
2) does your league have a payout plan that pays 1st and 2nd place for each quarter, or is all the money in the roll-off (and point money)? for example, in both of my leagues, our payout system is such that the winners of each quarter get paid a little extra on top of what they get from the roll-off. if a team wins more than one quarter, even though they can't be in the roll-off twice, they still get paid the money for first place in the quarter. i guess it really all depends on how your league payout works.
so, my opinion on this is twofold. if you don't think it's fair to have a roll-off whose participants are determined the way your league determines them, do your part to fix it. you'll either fix it or you won't. *shrug* if they don't vote for it, it's not like anyone is forcing you to stay on the league you're bowling on. also, if there is a prize fund committee on your league, you might want to consider getting on it. that way, you at least have a say in how the money is paid.
just my dos centavos. the end.
We pay point money. Nothing extra for winning a quarter. That is fine. Your total season points are paid x amount of dinero for each point. So - you can win the roll off and still not have the highest total point money.
I guess I am looking for good arguments to help me decide IF I want to bring this up at our pre-season meeting (to change the rule). I have the feeling it won't get changed. As I said - I think you should actually win a quarter to be in the final roll off. My feeling is since every team gets a handicap and we stick with that way of determining who wins the games (we are on a 7 point system)....you should win a quarter outright to be included in the roll off.
Only on the roll off is the sole factor of total pins the determinator of who wins the season. This is fine
We need a roll off, obviously, but I feel a team should EARN their way into the roll off by winning a quarter.
As far as changing my league - almost every league in Big Rapids, MI does this. Not too many options to change leagues......I just want the rule changed !! I run the risk of being labeled a poor sport by bringing this up.....I'm not a poor sport - I just want the rule changed!
Dear BRBA:
In any sport, there are rules to determine the ultimate winner. And in a league, there are rules to determine the champions.
The situation you describe is not unique to your league. Many leagues divide their seasons into halves, thirds or quarters, and they establish rules to deal with determination of a champion, including playoff rules (and rules to determine playoff eligibility).
In one of your previous posts, you brought up the valid situations involving "wild-card" teams in various sports. Think about how frequently a "wild-card" team winds up winning the World Series or the Super Bowl. It happens more often than you think. Such "wild-card" teams didn't win their division, but they qualified UNDER THE RULES that were in place.
There are ways to determine the winner(s), and the rules must be followed to arrive at the conclusion (and a league championship). As as you've indicated, the rules can always be changed for next season.
BRBA -- I don't take you as a poor sport at all. I do, however, wish you luck in getting a long-standing rule changed. "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."
Having said that, you may want to make a suggestion like this:
You have your four "quarters", unequal as they may be (7/8/8/7). You could place specifically into your rules the proviso that should a team win more than one quarter, then a "wild card" team is assigned the spot for that quarter (which is basically what you have now). The alternative could be for each round that is won by the same team, you create a "wild card" spot for the team not that follows the team in the succeeding round, but to the team at season's end that wins the most TOTAL points without winning a quarter. In your current scenario, for instance, let's say Team 1 wins round 1 and round 2. The team that finishes second in round 2 gets the playoff spot. What about the team that placed second in round 1? They finished 2nd too soon? Agreed, that is unfair.
Example 1: Each round has its own winner -- there's your playoff field. However, I will say that this format could keep the team that actually wins the most games from contending for the championship if that team does not win a quarter.
Example 2: One team wins two rounds -- one wild card team (based on SEASON wins) is added to the mix.
Example 3: One team wins three rounds out of four -- TWO wild card teams are added (same scenario as Example 2).
Example 4: One team wins all rounds -- outright champion (no need for a playoff).
I'm making an assumption here, which I hope is accurate. The seedings for your playoffs should be based on TOTAL SEASON wins, thus giving a previous quarter winner incentive to continue to bowl and not "dump" for the rolloffs. In other words, assuming Example 1 plays out, each team would be seeded based on TOTAL wins. Assuming a step-ladder rolloff, 4 vs. 3, winner bowls 2, winner bowls 1 for the title.
As for ties, we had a situation in a league years ago where we bowled three rounds of 11 weeks each, with three winners and FOUR wild cards (sixteen team league) qualifying for the rolloffs. Three stepladder matches (first team to 21 points -- match point format) on Saturday (7 vs.6, winner vs. 5, winner vs. 4), and three on Sunday (winner vs. 3, winner vs. 2, winner vs. 1). And yes, my team TIED for the seventh spot, then lost the tiebreaker, but it was an exciting format with much parity in the league.
Hope this helps ... sorry for the long-windedness.
