guinevere:why would a woman want to "give it a shot" when all she's going to get is flack? if she doesn't make it, it's because she's a chick. if she does make it, it was a total fluke, or she got lucky, or the guy she was bowling against had a bad couple of days.
Dear guinevere:
But, again, why wouldn't a woman "give it a shot" ... because, even if she failed to "make it," very few people would even know about it? And certainly, her local friends, who DID know about it, wouldn't laugh at her (or demean her in any way) for giving it her best shot
MightyFish: guinevere:why would a woman want to "give it a shot" when all she's going to get is flack? if she doesn't make it, it's because she's a chick. if she does make it, it was a total fluke, or she got lucky, or the guy she was bowling against had a bad couple of days. Dear guinevere: But, again, why wouldn't a woman "give it a shot" ... because, even if she failed to "make it," very few people would even know about it? And certainly, her local friends, who DID know about it, wouldn't laugh at her (or demean her in any way) for giving it her best shot
again...there's really no reason for a woman to try. the support isn't there. no one thinks she's going to make it, and even if she does, it's not because of anything she did. it's because the stars were aligned correctly.
i don't think that, for most women, it's a matter of people laughing. it doesn't really matter how many people know about it. it's about how many people actually respect the accomplishment when it happens. if i had the skills (don't get me wrong: at this point in my bowling career, i don't, and likely never will), even if i was mostly sure that i could become exempt, i probably wouldn't even try. the whole "name in lights" thing just isn't that important to me--especially when deep down, i'm pretty sure that a vast majority of my fellow bowlers wouldn't support me in my efforts, anyway.
when michelle wie tried to break into the PGA, everyone said that she would fail. she did, and she fell hard. part of her problem was that she was very, very young, nervous and trying to be successful while under more pressure than any teenager could handle. plus, she was playing with a bunch of boys. most mortal MEN can't compete with tiger woods, let alone a teenage girl. (i've been too lazy to look up exactly how old michelle wie was when she attempted her foray into that PGA tourney. if she was in her 20s--which i don't think she was because i don't even think that she's 20 yet--i apologize for not having my facts straight)dannica patrick finally won her first indy car race...no one cares, partly because she's been trying for so long and partly because it was a race that didn't mean anything anyway.
women who try to be pioneers in sports dominated by men aren't respected. they're told to stick to their own "associations" (to borrow the bowling terminology) and be happy with what they have because they're not going to succeed anyway.
tell me, where is the motivation in that? spirit will only take a girl so far. people need support, too.
In 2004 Wie became the fourth female, and the youngest ever, to play in a PGA Tour event at the Sony Open in Hawaii. Playing on a sponsor's exemption, she shot 72-68 to finish at even par, missing the cut by one stroke
In 2003, she became the youngest player to make a cut in an LPGA event at the Kraft Nabisco Championship, shooting a 66 in the 3rd round, tying the amateur record for a women's major championship, and placing her in the final group alongside Annika Sörenstam and eventual winner, Patricia Meunier-Lebouc. A few months later, Wie earned a historic victory at the Women's Amateur Public Links tournament, becoming the youngest person ever, male or female, to win a USGA adult event. She also became the youngest player to make the cut in the history of the US Women's Open, where she placed 39th. [7]
Guin,
That was straight from wikipedia. Michelle Wie will be a fine golfer in time, she just took a bad rap for what she tried to accomplish so early on. There's plenty of PGA players out there that don't want to see her back trying a men's event again because they KNOW she can beat them.
But enough about golf. I think it's funny that the origianl flame thrower of this post made his one and only post and has yet to come back and join in the discussion. I tend to believe it's not the ease of the game driving him away, rather the fact that he just couldn't keep up and was getting left behind in todays bowling environment. No sympathy here from me for him.
Digm
ThrowaDIGM: In 2004 Wie became the fourth female, and the youngest ever, to play in a PGA Tour event at the Sony Open in Hawaii. Playing on a sponsor's exemption, she shot 72-68 to finish at even par, missing the cut by one stroke In 2003, she became the youngest player to make a cut in an LPGA event at the Kraft Nabisco Championship, shooting a 66 in the 3rd round, tying the amateur record for a women's major championship, and placing her in the final group alongside Annika Sörenstam and eventual winner, Patricia Meunier-Lebouc. A few months later, Wie earned a historic victory at the Women's Amateur Public Links tournament, becoming the youngest person ever, male or female, to win a USGA adult event. She also became the youngest player to make the cut in the history of the US Women's Open, where she placed 39th. [7] Guin, That was straight from wikipedia. Michelle Wie will be a fine golfer in time, she just took a bad rap for what she tried to accomplish so early on. There's plenty of PGA players out there that don't want to see her back trying a men's event again because they KNOW she can beat them. But enough about golf. I think it's funny that the origianl flame thrower of this post made his one and only post and has yet to come back and join in the discussion. I tend to believe it's not the ease of the game driving him away, rather the fact that he just couldn't keep up and was getting left behind in todays bowling environment. No sympathy here from me for him. Digm
like i said, i'm a lazy biyotch. plus, i'm at work, so my research time for bowl.com posts is rather limited, and i was working off the ol' memory. i completely agree, michelle wie is an amazing golfer, and i also agree that she tried to accomplish more than she could at that point in her career, even as the amazing golfer she is. like i said, the boys want her to stay in her own association. that way, she'll leave them alone.
i think that in every sport, there are some women who CAN beat the men. i also think that most women are intimidated into staying in their own spaces because of gender roles and other complicated societal norms. don't get me wrong--i don't think that it's a majority of women who fit into this category (i'm not of the "anything you can do, i can do better" school, i'm more in the "a lot of (or maybe "some") things you can do, i can do better" school), but i believe that they do exist and they don't try because they're tired of the BS they get every time they do.
and i'm not sure if you read my original answer to mr. whatever-his-name is, but i agree with your assessment of his situation as well.
guinevere, as along time champion of allowing women to prove on the playing field whether or not they can compete, I remain in my thinking that just because most women cannot compete with men on the professional or top amatuer levels does not mean there are not some that can hold their own and want to test themselves to see if they can make it with the boys.
In Syracuse I always included the right of junior girls to compete with the boys in scratch divisions of my junior masters and junior match games in Syracuse. Keli Rapp may be recognized as an all america first teamer as a collegiate student at Erie Community College and Fresno State but she is also recognized as winning two straight junior match game scatch doubles titles with Joe Ciccone, also an collegiate all america first teamer and now enjoying exemption on the pro tour.
Michelle Feldman is recognized as a many time PWBA champion and the first to bowl a 300 game on the tour but is also recognized as the only junior girl to whip some very good junior boys and take the Junior Masters scratch division title.
Most women cannot compete for titles or even place high in the annual USBC National Open but some can and a certain Wendy who won the singles title.
A downer when women are allowed to compete with men is that sometimes women with little skill bowl where they really should not, also true of men, but this sort of thing becomes ammunition for the men who do not want any women to bowl in men's tournaments or leagues. There is a very good league here in the Villages that is men's only, my wife, and a couple of other very good women bowlers, would love to bowl in it as it is about the only league with good scratch competition. She and the others would average more than many men in the league but so far the men's only rule prevails.
Don Gates
prunenow: guinevere, as along time champion of allowing women to prove on the playing field whether or not they can compete, I remain in my thinking that just because most women cannot compete with men on the professional or top amatuer levels does not mean there are not some that can hold their own and want to test themselves to see if they can make it with the boys.In Syracuse I always included the right of junior girls to compete with the boys in scratch divisions of my junior masters and junior match games in Syracuse. Keli Rapp may be recognized as an all america first teamer as a collegiate student at Erie Community College and Fresno State but she is also recognized as winning two straight junior match game scatch doubles titles with Joe Ciccone, also an collegiate all america first teamer and now enjoying exemption on the pro tour.Michelle Feldman is recognized as a many time PWBA champion and the first to bowl a 300 game on the tour but is also recognized as the only junior girl to whip some very good junior boys and take the Junior Masters scratch division title.Most women cannot compete for titles or even place high in the annual USBC National Open but some can and a certain Wendy who won the singles title.A downer when women are allowed to compete with men is that sometimes women with little skill bowl where they really should not, also true of men, but this sort of thing becomes ammunition for the men who do not want any women to bowl in men's tournaments or leagues. There is a very good league here in the Villages that is men's only, my wife, and a couple of other very good women bowlers, would love to bowl in it as it is about the only league with good scratch competition. She and the others would average more than many men in the league but so far the men's only rule prevails. Don Gates
guinevere, as along time champion of allowing women to prove on the playing field whether or not they can compete, I remain in my thinking that just because most women cannot compete with men on the professional or top amatuer levels does not mean there are not some that can hold their own and want to test themselves to see if they can make it with the boys.In Syracuse I always included the right of junior girls to compete with the boys in scratch divisions of my junior masters and junior match games in Syracuse. Keli Rapp may be recognized as an all america first teamer as a collegiate student at Erie Community College and Fresno State but she is also recognized as winning two straight junior match game scatch doubles titles with Joe Ciccone, also an collegiate all america first teamer and now enjoying exemption on the pro tour.Michelle Feldman is recognized as a many time PWBA champion and the first to bowl a 300 game on the tour but is also recognized as the only junior girl to whip some very good junior boys and take the Junior Masters scratch division title.Most women cannot compete for titles or even place high in the annual USBC National Open but some can and a certain Wendy who won the singles title.A downer when women are allowed to compete with men is that sometimes women with little skill bowl where they really should not, also true of men, but this sort of thing becomes ammunition for the men who do not want any women to bowl in men's tournaments or leagues. There is a very good league here in the Villages that is men's only, my wife, and a couple of other very good women bowlers, would love to bowl in it as it is about the only league with good scratch competition. She and the others would average more than many men in the league but so far the men's only rule prevails.
i think that, for the most part, women who try to compete but can't hang are even more...scrutinized (i can't think of a better word right now, but that's almost the one i want) than men who are doing the same thing. it's not very often that a man who's bowling in the PBA regionals who is FAR from the "usual" level of pro is laughed off the alley. when it happens with a woman, it's "oh, look! another broad trying to compete where she doesn't belong."
men are advised to get better. women are advised to go back to their girly leagues and stay in their place.
p.s. please feel free to jump in any time, cicada....
All right, I have been reading this for a few days now and just cannot keep my mouth shut any longer. How do I say this without getting flamed?
I did not watch the clash and do not consider myself sexist. I support all Ladies in their quest for equality.
But, I am also a "realist," so on the average, I do NOT believe that women can compete equally with men at the ultimate level of ANY sport - bowling included. I think the proof is in the pudding and until we see females producing consistant championship results from fields full of the best males in a given arena, there is no data to support the idea that women can compete in sports equally with men.
I want to make a comment of how this has been related to golf. Michelle Wie has been mentioned. So, for those who dont know, I will tell you why Michelle Wie failed at her quest to compete against the men in golf. She is NO WAY NEAR good enough to complete at that level. I don't doubt that her age played a part but the simple fact is she does not have all of the skills necessary to consistantly shoot low scores on 7500 yard golf courses. Period. I also doubt she will ever have enough skill.
I think a better analogy to use would be Annika Sorrenstam. She is the "tiger woods" of Ladies Golf and arguably the best female golfer EVER. She is a much better golfer than Michelle Wie will probably EVER be. Annika played in a PGA Tour event a few years ago and could not make the cut. The reason she could not make the cut had alot to do with the fact that she cannot generate the same clubhead speed as the men and therefore could not get around as efficiently. Why cant she generate the same club-head speed? Maybe the fact that she is a woman?
until men stop reminding us how we're never going to be good enough to even try, it's not going to happen. the few women who could actually be good enough are going to stay away because the first time they fail, they never have a chance to earn that respect again. because they're women who tried to make it in a men's sport. for a guy, failing one time does not equal permanent failure. for a woman who is trying to be taken seriously as a competitor, that first time she fails means that she's never going to be good enough to play with the guys.
i never said that any woman in any sport could compete with the men, and that will never be my contention because it simply ain't true.
like i said--women are told that we need to stay in our girly leagues, be happy with what we have and not try to play with the boys because we can't.
I don't believe ANYONE on the PBA Tour ever told a woman bowler trying to make an event cut or qualifier that she should go back to her "girly events"
Vjay Singh of the PGA did make some remarks about women not belonging on the PGA Tour.
In regards to bowling, at the top level, the biggest difference between men and women is rev rate. Most of the men competing on the tour are 250+ rpms with the ones below 300 rpms being strokers such as Norm Duke, while many of the women are hard pressed to hit 200 rpms. The low rev rate can hurt a females scores on some patterns even with using a suitable ball and gives the men the advantage of carrying more off pocket shots by pin action. This is the one area in bowling that strength gives the men the advantage. They are more capable of using a stronger hand/wrist position and a stronger release to give their ball more power at the pin deck. Outside of that the top level bowlers of either gender have great physical games, and most have a good mental game as well. Many of the ladies generate similar speeds using a free armswing and hit their targets just as much as their male counterparts. The ladies just have to rely on finessee more than raw power. You don't see females make a PBA show often, much less winning it and thats partly just statistical and partly just not bowling good enough.
As for competing in other sports, thats a different story. I don't know much about golf. I do know that sometimes men and women tee off from different differences with the men being further from the greens/holes. As it was mentioned women can't really acheive the same club speed, probably due to physical make up. Without club speed it is hard to hit the ball far enough to cut down strokes. They would be hard pressed to make a cut much less be at the top when competing against men. There are no other sports that females have much of a chance to successfully compete against males. This is mainly due to physical differences.
In fact, during the Clash of Champions, they did show the rev rates...
Lynda Barnes: 190
Sean Rash: 450
And guess who won? Not Rash.
Right now, equipment can be a great equalizer between a higher and lower rev rate. As can the lane conditions.
I dare say a 190 rev rate vs. a 450 rev rate on a pattern such as the Shark would have a much harder time over many games.
Michelle Wie simply did not handle the pressure well at all. She "faked" ERRR "hurt her wrist" so she would not shoot over 88 and lose all remaining exemptions for one year at the Ginn Classic, embarassing Sorenstam and the tournament in general. And that's why she didn't get invited back either. If you can't beat your own tour, you shouldn't be trying to play with the men.
Guinevere, I totally see where you are coming from, and I think women's bowling is on the rise again. And I think there are many opportunities tournament-wise below the professional level for them to prove themselves. I think men and women should have equal opportunities, but they then should be expected to compete on the same level playing field. Bowling is one of those sports (Tennis too, definitely) where the women are equal if not better than many of the male players.
We definitely need to set an example for our youth, male and female, and build them to compete at the higher levels, and not just let them flow into a normal league and expect higher scores, along with developing bad form and techniques, if we want bowling to grow at all levels.
JC
BTW...forum alert! If you are in the SA area, I'll be bowling at Astro Bowl @ 6 PM on the 17th and Wonder Bowl @ 12 PM on the 18th in the Texas State Bowling Tournament. I'd love to meet someone and put a face with the writer! :)
joerevs300: Bowling is one of those sports (Tennis too, definitely) where the women are equal if not better than many of the male players.
Bowling is one of those sports (Tennis too, definitely) where the women are equal if not better than many of the male players.
As far as bowling is concerned (at the pro level) then why isn't there a LPBT Tour or why aren't there any exempt women players on the PBA Tour? I'm not a hater either, just stating a fact.
Even at the upper league level I disagree with your assessment and I bowl with some really good women bowlers.
Randy, most very good men bowlers are not able to gain an exemption on the PBA tour, many very good men bowlers have never won an eagle in the Open but a woman has, a woman did make it through a qualifier to gain an exemption and a woman nearly got in through points in qualifiers and almost won a title. Women have won PBA regionals, at least one I know of, Liz Johnson, more than one regional and also outscored the men while leading the women in the Challenge qualifier.
I don't think it necessary for a woman to be good enough to win before being able to compete in PBA tournaments, be good enough to carry high average to compete in scratch men's leagues. There are quite a few women good enough to make PBA regional finals and have without winning, the same for many men who have made finals but never won.
One of the main reasons I think exceptional woman bowlers should not be held back from testing themselves against the best locally and nationally is the lack of competition for very good women bowlers at local levels and lack of good competition for women nationally. For them it is a step up while those who argue men should be able to compete in women's tournaments and leagues is a step back, in my mind a big difference.
Women stars in the past wanted but could not get the opportunity to test their skills in PBA tournaments. As I wrote before, my wife right now is on the outside looking in on a very good scratch league in the Villages, a league where she and a couple of other women could fit in very nicely in the top half of the averages not the bottom half. Instead there is no league for high average women mainly because there are not enough high average women to have a scratch league for them.
To feel the same frustration you might try imagining there was a very good league you wanted to bowl in but it was only for righthanders because they felt left handers had too much of an advantage so kept them out; and, that league was the only good scratch league available in your area. So, being a good bowler you had only handicap leagues with much lower average bowlers competing for you to bowl in.
