OK, a couple things here:

Joe, Dgarren,

Wie missed the cut at the Sony open by 1 shot a couple years ago where annika never really came close.  That's the closest any female has come to making a PGA tour cut since Babe Didreckson actually made a cut a long long time ago.  Michelle also almost did it as a 15 year old so saying she's out  of her league is just wrong IMHO.  Given the oppurtunities, she will make a PGA cut and she will dominate womens golf in the long run.  5 years from now if I'm wrong, flame away on me.

RJN,

In your opinion, if the CoC's side show had been run in a little different format, say finals bowl 3 games total, what would you uess the odds are the result is the same?  I just thought while fun to watch, the whole format was a little hokie. 1 ball and your eliminated?    I mean I could have backwards blinded into a few good balls and made it past the first few rounds.  What does that prove?  nothing IMO.

Digm

RJN825:

joerevs300:

  Bowling is one of those sports (Tennis too, definitely) where the women are equal if not better than many of the male players.

As far as bowling is concerned (at the pro level) then why isn't there a LPBT Tour or why aren't there any exempt women players on the PBA Tour? I'm not a hater either, just stating a fact.

Even at the upper league level I disagree with your assessment and I bowl with some really good women bowlers.

because chicks need to get better at handling money?

because it's tough to get a break.

guinevere:

until men stop reminding us how we're never going to be good enough to even try, it's not going to happen. the few women who could actually be good enough are going to stay away because the first time they fail, they never have a chance to earn that respect again. because they're women who tried to make it in a men's sport. for a guy, failing one time does not equal permanent failure. for a woman who is trying to be taken seriously as a competitor, that first time she fails means that she's never going to be good enough to play with the guys.

i never said that any woman in any sport could compete with the men, and that will never be my contention because it simply ain't true.

like i said--women are told that we need to stay in our girly leagues, be happy with what we have and not try to play with the boys because we can't.

It looks like I am hitting a nerve with you.  You are sick and tired of guys that think girls are not good enough to equally compete with guys.  I get it.  But you are copping out.  Poor girls not getting any respect and that is why they fail.  BS.  Respect is earned.  I dont care who you are, if you think you are good enough to compete, lace em up and get out there.  If you want to be taken seriously, be as good.  Prove It.

But you cant have it both ways - I have respect for any woman who has enough skill and courage to try and compete equally against men in anything - but you arent taken seriously and lose that respect when you come up with this "the first time they fail they never have a chance to earn it again, so why try" excuse.  What a cop out.

dgarren:

guinevere:

until men stop reminding us how we're never going to be good enough to even try, it's not going to happen. the few women who could actually be good enough are going to stay away because the first time they fail, they never have a chance to earn that respect again. because they're women who tried to make it in a men's sport. for a guy, failing one time does not equal permanent failure. for a woman who is trying to be taken seriously as a competitor, that first time she fails means that she's never going to be good enough to play with the guys.

i never said that any woman in any sport could compete with the men, and that will never be my contention because it simply ain't true.

like i said--women are told that we need to stay in our girly leagues, be happy with what we have and not try to play with the boys because we can't.

It looks like I am hitting a nerve with you.  You are sick and tired of guys that think girls are not good enough to equally compete with guys.  I get it.  But you are copping out.  Poor girls not getting any respect and that is why they fail.  BS.  Respect is earned.  I dont care who you are, if you think you are good enough to compete, lace em up and get out there.  If you want to be taken seriously, be as good.  Prove It.

But you cant have it both ways - I have respect for any woman who has enough skill and courage to try and compete equally against men in anything - but you arent taken seriously and lose that respect when you come up with this "the first time they fail they never have a chance to earn it again, so why try" excuse.  What a cop out.

i'm not good enough, which is why i don't try. how's that for a cop-out? 

most of you've already stated that as soon as a woman can come out and beat all the men (this what i am reading your "compete with" as), they'll earn your respect. but that's not going to happen right away, and may not ever happen. my contention is that there are women who can participate at the pro level in whatever sport we're talking about. they may not win, and they're definitely not as strong and they're definitely not going to have the clubhead speed or the revs or the upper-body strength or the whatever else, but they can participate at a level that is the same as at least a majority of the champions--because of skill level or finesse or equipment or serve speed or...

i do believe that there is a serious double standard when it comes to women who try to make it in the "men's league." if you view that as a cop-out, that's totally your perogative.

guinevere:

most of you've already stated that as soon as a woman can come out and beat all the men (this what i am reading your "compete with" as), they'll earn your respect. but that's not going to happen right away, and may not ever happen. my contention is that there are women who can participate at the pro level in whatever sport we're talking about. they may not win, and they're definitely not as strong and they're definitely not going to have the clubhead speed or the revs or the upper-body strength or the whatever else, but they can participate at a level that is the same as at least a majority of the champions--because of skill level or finesse or equipment or serve speed or...

i do believe that there is a serious double standard when it comes to women who try to make it in the "men's league." if you view that as a cop-out, that's totally your perogative.

I have respect for all athletes and their talents - and just because I do not believe that women can equally complete against men, that doe NOT mean that I do not have respect for women as competitors.  And I 100% agree with your opening paragraph in that there are women who can participate at the pro level with men.  But I am not going to buy into the argument that the only reason there arent more women competing against the men is the lack of opportunity.

dgarren:

guinevere:

most of you've already stated that as soon as a woman can come out and beat all the men (this what i am reading your "compete with" as), they'll earn your respect. but that's not going to happen right away, and may not ever happen. my contention is that there are women who can participate at the pro level in whatever sport we're talking about. they may not win, and they're definitely not as strong and they're definitely not going to have the clubhead speed or the revs or the upper-body strength or the whatever else, but they can participate at a level that is the same as at least a majority of the champions--because of skill level or finesse or equipment or serve speed or...

i do believe that there is a serious double standard when it comes to women who try to make it in the "men's league." if you view that as a cop-out, that's totally your perogative.

I have respect for all athletes and their talents - and just because I do not believe that women can equally complete against men, that does NOT mean that I do not have respect for women as competitors.  And I 100% agree with your opening paragraph in that there are women who can participate at the pro level with men.  But I am not going to buy into the argument that the only reason there arent more women competing against the men is the lack of opportunity.

fair enough.

sometimes, i tend to imply that i think something is the "only reason" for a situation when i can't remember what my other awesome arguments are at the time the i'm typing. it's not intentional--it kinda happens accidentally.

for the record, i don't view any of you as on the same level as the "little lady" guy.

guinevere:

p.s. please feel free to jump in any time, cicada....

quin, I do believe that you are doing a most excellent job without me ( I had to do some catch up reading on this thread).  What we need to realize is that some "don't get it" and trying to convince them otherwise is an exercise in fultilty.

cicada49:

guinevere:

p.s. please feel free to jump in any time, cicada....

guin, I do believe that you are doing a most excellent job without me ( I had to do some catch up reading on this thread).  What we need to realize is that some "don't get it" and trying to convince them otherwise is an exercise in fultilty.

i don't doubt that you had some catching up to do. it's been a slow week at work while waiting for others' input on projects that i'm working on (and because the online training i'm supposed to be doing is boring as...um, boring stuff). i've been very feisty (because i can't use the word i want to use....) these past few days.

Thing is that modern equipment has helped a lot of people not just the females. Back when I was in the old AJBC we had a coach that lined some of us up. The line was girl boy girl boy..... He had us hold out our arms palms up and out in front of us. He then showed us that all the girls wrist were turned outward and all the boys wrist with 1 exception was turned inward. He said that because of physical reasons that it is harder for a female to throw a hook and that the outward turned wrist is the main reason. Now keep in mind that this was in the days of polyester and rubber balls. The science holds up for the wrist thing. That is why when most females start off they throw a backup ball. He said only about 10% of females and 10% males have the in out reversed. So I admire the hard w*rk that the middle and top females put in to get to the level that they are at. That being said I get my rearend handed to me quite often by females and males alike.

I've also noticed that most women pros wear those monstrosity wrist devices to keep their arm/wrist in the correct position. How good would many of them throw it if not for said "helper device"? Same for men that must use said devices.

Obviously you can tell I'm not a fan of said aids............................

atl10pnr, actually it is the elbow, not the wrist that turns up for the women more than for men when the arm is extended.

Don Gates

when i hold my arm out, palm up, my wrist naturally turns inward (i.e. my hand is in the beginnings of the position for throwing a hook). when i threw a backup ball when i first started, i had serious problems keeping the ball straight because my hand naturally finishes in the "handshake" position, as opposed to flat. that's a lot of the reason that my first average (and second...and third) was so absymal. i just didn't know how to bowl, and i was naturally trying to "throw a hook" with a ball that was not drilled for it. that's also why i have serious issues with picking up the 7 pin.

but, as Don said, my elbow turns outward. (when you posted your original post, i didn't even hold my hand out and try to see the deal, but when Don posted this, i checked. i'm a dork)

Randy--I wear a Robby Revs II and honestly, it helps my wrist hurt less, as I have Carpal Tunnel.  Does it help me--sure.  Could I bowl without it-sure-but it will hurt.

I don't know if I ever told any of you, but I used to take lessons from one of the former PWBA Pros.  We became pretty good friends and I was there when the tour ended.  I really don't believe from the info I was given that there was a lack of fans for the women's tour, but a lack of funds for sponsorship.  I got to know quite a few female professionals and either way, they were "screwed."  When the tour ended, alot had to get jobs and support their families.  A few, tried the Exempt Route, but financially, that was just not happening.  Now here is the funny part...there was no tour and my coach joined a few leagues.  Guess what happened? She got grief for bowling in "leagues."  So you were darned if you do and darned if you don't.  Doesn't seem quite fair, but eh, that is life.

Chrissy :)