prunenow:

skullpants, nope you is dead wrong but apparently USBC agrees with you as well as  those who select players for basketball in the Olympics.  The very worst thing that could happend for that sport in the Olympics is for the best NBA players to be chosen and win easily every four years.  The very worst thing for bowling as an international sport is for USBC to choose the very best exempt PBA players and win almost every event they enter or come very close.

 

It is still true in most Olympic sports that the participants have to 'earn' it in competition with others not get it handed to them and that opportunity to have a chance to earn it I think is important right at entry level where that dream begins.

 

Don Gates

Don are you suggesting that we should not allow PBA members the opportunity to represent their country so that the rest of the world might be able to better compete? I think any legitimate world class competitor would be offended by your remarks and would welcome the opportunity to take on the best that the US has to offer. The dream should not begin by using the rulebook to handicap the field so that less than the best might stand a better chance of making the team. It is after all supposed to be a competitive event first and foremost and not just a marketing tool for a sagging industry. 

skullpants, did not say that but as usual you make up something then comment on it.  I am not against PBA exempt players being on Team USA but think if they want to represent the USA they should earn it by competing with other very good bowlers and those making the team should bowl, no picking of team members.

As I also stated I think there should be a step ladder of recognition, like there is in baseball where those who want to make the big leagues but do not can still enjoy trying in more and more competitive outlets as they improve.  I think there should be an auxiliary team USA for entry level juniors who have gone through the steps, a recognition far beyond just exempt PBA bowlers chosen by USBC.  For men and women who have not gone through the steps as juniors allow them to apply for auxiliary status and if they prove their excellence join others in annual trials just for them, nobody just buying their way into the trials as they do now for fewer and fewer spots on the adult and junior teams.

Having said that, would I be in favor of PBA exempt players not being involved in international Team USA compeition at all?  Yep, sure would and think there are plenty of very good men and women bowlers who choose not to be professionals who would make very good team members.  In fact, long ago I was one of the first to state my thought that the AMF World Cup when it  was represented by all events champions in the ACUI Collegiate championships was a great promotional tool for collegiate bowling and when it went away in an attempt to assure better represenation to earn more championships it was a mistake even if the better reps won every year.

Don Gates

prunenow:

skullpants, did not say that but as usual you make up something then comment on it.  I am not against PBA exempt players being on Team USA but think if they want to represent the USA they should earn it by competing with other very good bowlers and those making the team should bowl, no picking of team members.

 

As I also stated I think there should be a step ladder of recognition, like there is in baseball where those who want to make the big leagues but do not can still enjoy trying in more and more competitive outlets as they improve.  I think there should be an auxiliary team USA for entry level juniors who have gone through the steps, a recognition far beyond just exempt PBA bowlers chosen by USBC.  For men and women who have not gone through the steps as juniors allow them to apply for auxiliary status and if they prove their excellence join others in annual trials just for them, nobody just buying their way into the trials as they do now for fewer and fewer spots on the adult and junior teams.

 

Having said that, would I be in favor of PBA exempt players not being involved in international Team USA compeition at all?  Yep, sure would and think there are plenty of very good men and women bowlers who choose not to be professionals who would make very good team members.  In fact, long ago I was one of the first to state my thought that the AMF World Cup when it  was represented by all events champions in the ACUI Collegiate championships was a great promotional tool for collegiate bowling and when it went away in an attempt to assure better represenation to earn more championships it was a mistake even if the better reps won every year.

 

Don Gates

Lol Don. Your third paragraph does not seem to agree with your first paragraph. You clearly do not feel that the touring pros should be allowed to represent their country even if they are clearly the better players. You could have just stated that as your view.

As far as your step ladder of recognition is concerned it should already in place. You have your birthday parties, then you have your glow bowling, then you have your gimmick leagues, then you have your mixed recreational leagues including youth, then you have the numerous sport leagues, then you have your regional pros, and finally you have your touring pros. There it is Don, a clear path to follow if you want to represent your country on team USA.

I really take offense when you act as though I made something up when I am clearly asking questions to see if I understand your post correctly. You could try to be a little more diplomatic with your responses Don.  

skullpants, take all the offense you want as I could but don't when you continually avoid answering questions yourself and make up things to ask me that have nothing to do with what I post, asking  me to respond and help you understand something you made up about my views and what I posted.

Your latest remarks were classic, worthless but maybe you got a laugh or two from some readers, the kind of stuff a sheep pretending to be wolf would write.

Don Gates

prunenow:

skullpants, take all the offense you want as I could but don't when you continually avoid answering questions yourself and make up things to ask me that have nothing to do with what I post, asking  me to respond and help you understand something you made up about my views and what I posted.

 

Your latest remarks were classic, worthless but maybe you got a laugh or two from some readers, the kind of stuff a sheep pretending to be wolf would write.

 

Don Gates

You know Don, to me it seems that sometimes your views change after you have time to think about them a little but perhaps it is just my imagination.

Were my remarks as classically worthless as my wolf vs.sheep analgy that at one time you would not recognize as an accurate portrayal of bowlers of differing levels of ability?

 Don !

It's really hard to believe that any American would say that the team representing the United States of America in international compeition should not be made up of the very best we have to represent us. The PBA players are the best in the country regardless of what some people want to think.

E. Chase

skullpants, just talking about your particular self awarding of wolf status,  ability to slay sheep and make them quit bowling.  Don't agree that even the very best want to classify themselves as wolves with the purpose of slaying sheep, forcing them out of the game to help put USBC put of business and replace it with a new organization.

I will not dispute that you have a vivid imagination, have yet to agree that you are as good at nuts and bolts.

Earl, if all  there is to Team USA is winning gold medals then selecting the top PBA exempt players for all the important international events should bring them in by the bushel full. 

I may well be in the minority but think there should be a road to travel for entry level bowlers that leads to the possibility of earning a place on the adult/junior national team and/or becoming an exempt professional bowler, a road created on the blank slate BPAA/USBC has to work with that would not include any selections by anybody. 

I think that road should include very good coaching available for small groups as they improve their skills, loads of activities that increase in importance as skill levels increase for adults and juniors.

Just to show you how far 'out of the box' I am I think it was a big mistake to turn the opens and masters/queens over to PBA to make them little more than just another stop on the tour.  I think they should play an important role in the creation of many other events that decide state and national championships through local qualifiers, perhaps through singles sport leagues to inspire the best to participate.

I don't know that anyone other than me has even thought of it but I think the road to being on a national team should include a stop as an auxiliary national team member based on achieving the gold level of excellence near the end of the road, gaining that level insuring an all expense paid trip to national team trials for junior/adult teams.  Eliminate affordability in favor of proven excellence as a criteria to try out for the national teams.

 If exempt PBA bowlers want to try out for the team, and there may well be many who would have liked to that were not chosen, then they apply for auxiliary national team membership (along with any other adults and juniors who think they have the 'right stuff),  pass the tests of excellence all other auxiliary members had to pass to gain that distinction, and try to win a team spot  in the national trials.

auxiliary national team members would help pay the bills by participating in exhibitions, partnering with other charities who use bowling centers as fund raisers.

As an American, Earl,  I think there are lots and lots of juniors and adults with talent that could represent the USA well in international competition and trials is the best way to give everyone with the ambition and talent the opportunity to make the junior or adult national teams,

Don Gates

prunenow:

Earl, if all  there is to Team USA is winning gold medals then selecting the top PBA exempt players for all the important international events should bring them in by the bushel full. 

 

I may well be in the minority but think there should be a road to travel for entry level bowlers that leads to the possibility of earning a place on the adult/junior national team and/or becoming an exempt professional bowler, a road created on the blank slate BPAA/USBC has to work with that would not include any selections by anybody. 

 

I think that road should include very good coaching available for small groups as they improve their skills, loads of activities that increase in importance as skill levels increase for adults and juniors.

 

Just to show you how far 'out of the box' I am I think it was a big mistake to turn the opens and masters/queens over to PBA to make them little more than just another stop on the tour.  I think they should play an important role in the creation of many other events that decide state and national championships through local qualifiers, perhaps through singles sport leagues to inspire the best to participate.

 

I don't know that anyone other than me has even thought of it but I think the road to being on a national team should include a stop as an auxiliary national team member based on achieving the gold level of excellence near the end of the road, gaining that level insuring an all expense paid trip to national team trials for junior/adult teams.  Eliminate affordability in favor of proven excellence as a criteria to try out for the national teams.

 

 If exempt PBA bowlers want to try out for the team, and there may well be many who would have liked to that were not chosen, then they apply for auxiliary national team membership (along with any other adults and juniors who think they have the 'right stuff),  pass the tests of excellence all other auxiliary members had to pass to gain that distinction, and try to win a team spot  in the national trials.

 

auxiliary national team members would help pay the bills by participating in exhibitions, partnering with other charities who use bowling centers as fund raisers.

 

As an American, Earl,  I think there are lots and lots of juniors and adults with talent that could represent the USA well in international competition and trials is the best way to give everyone with the ambition and talent the opportunity to make the junior or adult national teams,

 

Don Gates

This post is right on. No one can argue agains't these fine points unless your goal is to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.

RJN825:

prunenow:

Earl, if all  there is to Team USA is winning gold medals then selecting the top PBA exempt players for all the important international events should bring them in by the bushel full. 

 

I may well be in the minority but think there should be a road to travel for entry level bowlers that leads to the possibility of earning a place on the adult/junior national team and/or becoming an exempt professional bowler, a road created on the blank slate BPAA/USBC has to work with that would not include any selections by anybody. 

 

I think that road should include very good coaching available for small groups as they improve their skills, loads of activities that increase in importance as skill levels increase for adults and juniors.

 

Just to show you how far 'out of the box' I am I think it was a big mistake to turn the opens and masters/queens over to PBA to make them little more than just another stop on the tour.  I think they should play an important role in the creation of many other events that decide state and national championships through local qualifiers, perhaps through singles sport leagues to inspire the best to participate.

 

I don't know that anyone other than me has even thought of it but I think the road to being on a national team should include a stop as an auxiliary national team member based on achieving the gold level of excellence near the end of the road, gaining that level insuring an all expense paid trip to national team trials for junior/adult teams.  Eliminate affordability in favor of proven excellence as a criteria to try out for the national teams.

 

 If exempt PBA bowlers want to try out for the team, and there may well be many who would have liked to that were not chosen, then they apply for auxiliary national team membership (along with any other adults and juniors who think they have the 'right stuff),  pass the tests of excellence all other auxiliary members had to pass to gain that distinction, and try to win a team spot  in the national trials.

 

auxiliary national team members would help pay the bills by participating in exhibitions, partnering with other charities who use bowling centers as fund raisers.

 

As an American, Earl,  I think there are lots and lots of juniors and adults with talent that could represent the USA well in international competition and trials is the best way to give everyone with the ambition and talent the opportunity to make the junior or adult national teams,

 

Don Gates

 

This post is right on. No one can argue agains't these fine points unless your goal is to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.

 

You are correct Randy. It only needs a few nuts and bolts, like how the all expense paid trips will be financed. Also team trials will likely require a great deal of lineage. As I understand it team USA always finds itself underfunded. Is it possible that the selection process that was used was an attempt by USBC to avoid excessive expenses in the way of lineage costs for team members?

skullpants, I think means of covering those bills could be worked out rather easily if the road to excellence included far more events for all skill levels that increase in prestige as skill levels rise. Without putting up any money, BPAA could support this by holding their events at member centers willing to rebate a set amount out of lineage income, raising money much the same way as many tournament oganizations do it when they run special events with added money from what they collect from the regular events.

If there was a regional organization able to coordinate them, auxiliary national team members could be recruited for exhibitions, clinics and partnering with charitable organzations that use bowling centers to raise money;  a way of helping pay for the coaching and opportunities they enjoyed traveling the road from entry level to reaching one step away from being  a national team member or exempt player on the PBA/PWBA  tour..

As for lineage at national trials I think BPAA should be willing to 'eat' those costs just as right now they should be willing to 'eat' the lineage costs for the Junior National Gold Tournament.

Skullpants, I also think corporations who do business in bowling would be willing partners to support this sort of thing, maybe ball companies supplying top of the line bowling balls at cost for season opening  ball reffles all over this land to support junior/adult Team USA as just one example.

What I think should be done and can be done is to have support of junior./adult team USA good for bottom line reasons, good for the promotion of bowling at junior/adult  levels, good for increased business for bowling centers, those who sell product to increasing numbers of bowlers, for increasing rather than decreasing numbers of certified bowling and for increasing the numbers of very good bowlers so there can a return of good classic leagues and local bowlling shows to showcase talented bowlers who can become heroes and role models as they once were.  The goal to win gold medals should be just one piece of many in a Team USA puzzle that if put together right could be so much more valuable than it is now which is probably a pretty big expense with little value or recognition at local levels

Don Gates

p.s.  skullpants, the nuts and bolts ball is now in your court.  If you succeed in destroying USBC list some of the things you would do differently and how you would pay for them with the new organization you want to form?

prunenow:

skullpants, I think means of covering those bills could be worked out rather easily if the road to excellence included far more events for all skill levels that increase in prestige as skill levels rise. Without putting up any money, BPAA could support this by holding their events at member centers willing to rebate a set amount out of lineage income, raising money much the same way as many tournament oganizations do it when they run special events with added money from what they collect from the regular events.

 

If there was a regional organization able to coordinate them, auxiliary national team members could be recruited for exhibitions, clinics and partnering with charitable organzations that use bowling centers to raise money;  a way of helping pay for the coaching and opportunities they enjoyed traveling the road from entry level to reaching one step away from being  a national team member or exempt player on the PBA/PWBA  tour..

 

As for lineage at national trials I think BPAA should be willing to 'eat' those costs just as right now they should be willing to 'eat' the lineage costs for the Junior National Gold Tournament.

 

Skullpants, I also think corporations who do business in bowling would be willing partners to support this sort of thing, maybe ball companies supplying top of the line bowling balls at cost for season opening  ball reffles all over this land to support junior/adult Team USA as just one example.

 

What I think should be done and can be done is to have support of junior./adult team USA good for bottom line reasons, good for the promotion of bowling at junior/adult  levels, good for increased business for bowling centers, those who sell product to increasing numbers of bowlers, for increasing rather than decreasing numbers of certified bowling and for increasing the numbers of very good bowlers so there can a return of good classic leagues and local bowlling shows to showcase talented bowlers who can become heroes and role models as they once were.  The goal to win gold medals should be just one piece of many in a Team USA puzzle that if put together right could be so much more valuable than it is now which is probably a pretty big expense with little value or recognition at local levels

 

Don Gates

 

p.s.  skullpants, the nuts and bolts ball is now in your court.  If you succeed in destroying USBC list some of the things you would do differently and how you would pay for them with the new organization you want to form?

Wait Don, I am still a little unclear about your ideas to finance team USA. Are you suggesting that BPAA should raise lineage rates for everyone and then rebate that amount to pay for all expense paid trips for the best players? That sounds a little like one of my ideas that you did not care much for unless I am misunderstanding your post yet again.

I also like the idea of BPAA eating lineage costs as well, but I wonder if you have actually run this idea by Gary. You know how he feels that giving away freebies is not so good for business.

In short Don, I though that you were against lower costs for higher caliber player supported by average players, but it seems as though you might be in favor of such a thing as long as it is actually administered by BPAA. Why could it not be administered by USBC since USBC and BPAA are now partners so to speak?

skullpants, you certainly are a 'piece of work' no answers just questions, taking what is said and suggesting there is something other than what was said left unsaid.  Reminds me of another guy who at least uses his real name and does not remain in the shadows.

Did I say anything about raising prices in order to support Team USA with a cut from increased lineage costs?  No, in fact I never said I was not in favor of lower prices at times, not the lower prices for high average bowlers, higher prices for lower average bowlers as an incentive to encourage lower average bowlers to practice so they can pay less kind of thing you advocate.

If BPAA/USBC were to create something entirely new that included a series of season long activities for juniors and adults for all skill levels, coordinated by regionals and run by local associations, that ranged from just house level for beginners to association wide, state wide championships and for the very best nationwide championships, a consistent program for juniors and consistent nationwide program of activities the revenues from better prices, not higher, l could be tapped to pay expenses.  This is the easiest way for bowling center owners to participate, giving up a portion of their new income rather than giving up cash in hopes of getting new income.

When I ran qualifying tournaments for men and women to participate in the U.S. Opens and Masters/Queens I always got a rebate from the men and women's lineage, a pretty good, lower not higher, price to be used to support the women who had less entries and the same need for expense money.  As long as they did not have to promote it and work it I found bowling center owners more than willing to give me good prices for bowling so long as they did not have to give up prime time, sometimes for free when we promoted events to raise money for various causes.

I also found this true with bowling ball companies who were always willing to donate bowling balls for raffles when getting cash was not as easy.  I think they might buy into an annual opening the season raffle, run by juniors to raise money for junior programs and support Team USA, with top of the line bowling balls at cost, not free.  I often did this in Syracuse and here in Floride for boys and girls going to the junior gold national in Orlando.

So far as my thinking BPAA should pick up the costs of bowlilng for the National Junior Gold tournament, it is these boys and girls who spend the most money in bowling centers developing their skills and participating in tournaments that produce income, spend the most money on bowling equipment which produces money for ball companies and those who sell  the other stuff they buy.  The junior national is a very expensive tournament for the juniors, many of whom get some support from fund raisers  but not all of them.

The return for the investment in entry fees and expenses is a disgrace and I think the BPAA could show their thanks for all the income they get from these juniors, and others who do not attend the national, the ball companies and other for profits could show their support to provide  not a tiny portion of their entry fees back in scholarships but 200% or more of their entry fees returned in scholarships, sponsoring a few breakfasts and dinners, and having some very good deals on site for bowling balls and other 'stuff' if that is not already being done.  

For bowling centers and other for profits to support things I described is far from being a giveaway, rather it is good business, good for the bottom lines when there are more and more juniors and adults coming into the game and staying than leaving when you and your supporters 'slaughter them'. and show your support for efforrts to improve things for the better bowlers by announcing to all willing to read your posts that you would rather lounge by your pool than do anything  at all to help.

Don Gates