EagleHunter: Frank, I agree with most of what you stated. But here is the problem with what you stated...simply "SHOULD." This goes right back to what I was saying to Don. I will give absolutely no argument that these types of things SHOULD be happening. The point is ARE they happening? I would suspect that they are not. And I would argue (based on conversations/meetings within my association) that resources (time, money, etc.) are the main reason that these things are not done. So again, SHOULD it be done...absolutely. Is it being done currently...probably not. That said, good luck with the merging process. Hopefully everything works out!
Frank, I agree with most of what you stated. But here is the problem with what you stated...simply "SHOULD." This goes right back to what I was saying to Don. I will give absolutely no argument that these types of things SHOULD be happening. The point is ARE they happening?
I would suspect that they are not. And I would argue (based on conversations/meetings within my association) that resources (time, money, etc.) are the main reason that these things are not done. So again, SHOULD it be done...absolutely. Is it being done currently...probably not.
That said, good luck with the merging process. Hopefully everything works out!
Eaglehunter,
I can tell you the things Don and I talk about are not being done in most areas of the country, and poor mouth crap like "like of money, time, and whatever other resources consist of" is no excuse, and particularily not in your area.
Every association that uses Win-Labs an get a list of "orphan bowlers" or "dropped bowlers" or whatever it is called from their computer. It will list the individual bowlers who were certified last year, but failed to certify this year. That list can be worked with to generate another , smaller, list to each league and then used to contact those bowlers for the purposes we are talking about.
Sure, it takes some time. Anything worth doing takes some time and effort.
Computers work for free and generating stuff like this doesn't take any significant "resources" that Detroit or any other association cannot afford.
While associations cannot give personal information like this to proprietors, the associations can certainly give it to themselves and their leagues.
I will bet you that your leagues secretaries and presidents do not know such lists are possible (at least very few of them do) and will also bet that only a small minority of your individual house reps are aware of them.
I would be willing to bet that few proprietors know they can supply mailings to recruit dropped bowlers from their centers to your association to be labeled and mailed by the association if they (proprietors) supply the postage. They can do the same for surveys as to why the members did not return, or left in the first place.
The individual leagues do not even need association help for things like this: They have the information already, as do most of the proprietors who have computerized scoring programs.
What is missing is our association people, league officials, and others who have volunteered to do this kind of thing, or who were elected to do it, getting off their butts and doing it!
League secretaries are paid to do it, and the bowling scoring programs they use to keep records will even generate league specific lists for them.
The constant 125-200,000 annual membership losses are killing the sport. When association people get away with saying they do not have the resources to make serious efforts to stop the bleeding, my answer is B.S.! If that is true, we do not need local associations at all, and I for one, refuse to believe that.
Frank
I just read the above reply to your post, and it may sound like I am singling out your association. That is not my intent. I hear the same garbage from most of my peers in my association, not all but way too many. My reply to them is just what I wrote in the above post.
Please do me the favor, and yourself as well, by asking your house reps and association directors about what I stated in that post. If they know about the nuts and bolts of bowling administration, they will agree with me.
One of the biggest problems we have continues to be stagnation, apathy, lack of expertise and education, in our local associations. It is easy for anyone who does not want to perform in any kind of organization to put out (falsely) the statement that "we don't have the time or resources" instead of getting up and doing what so obviously needs to be done if it involves some extra effort on their part or doesn't involve recognition if it is done.
It is too easy, and it happens every day in our local associations.
Randy, probably Skull did what I sometimes do and not double space, winding up with one long paragraph.
I will comment on the center not allocating all the lanes for a City Tournament. Many associations seek and get low ball bids for their events if there are several centers in their association. If they are getting a deal or not getting a deal there usually are far more lanes available on the reservation books than will enter the tournaments.
When I was involved with a good sponsor and well over 200 team entries for the Syracuse annual tournament I would work with the host bowling center to try and avoid as much as possible having less than using all the allocated lanes by combining less than full squads rather than have the center turning away business and have dark lanes during less than full squads. If in the case posted there had been previous instances of less than 40 lanes being occupied when smaller squads could have been combined then allocating less lanes in the future should be expected.
Where there is to be a one lane or two lane courtesy next to the annual or any of many events we promoted and ran for seniors, adult/juniors, mixed, officers, league average champions and more, I would make sure the desk person understood that there should only be open play bowlers assigned to those nearby lanes who understood lane courtesy and behavior that would not bother the tournament entrants. if those kinds of bowling were not available they would just have to wait until lanes opened up away from the tournament.
Unless tournament directors are paying for all the lanes regardless of whether they are used or not there is no reason why they should expect centers to have dark lanes when they may be getting less than full price for the bowling in the first place. Staying away from prime times during the day and prime times during the year are other things that should be considered if the entire center is to be blocked out with the possibility of some lanes having to go dark.
Don Gates
prunenow: Randy, probably Skull did what I sometimes do and not double space, winding up with one long paragraph. I will comment on the center not allocating all the lanes for a City Tournament. Many associations seek and get low ball bids for their events if there are several centers in their association. If they are getting a deal or not getting a deal there usually are far more lanes available on the reservation books than will enter the tournaments. When I was involved with a good sponsor and well over 200 team entries for the Syracuse annual tournament I would work with the host bowling center to try and avoid as much as possible having less than using all the allocated lanes by combining less than full squads rather than have the center turning away business and have dark lanes during less than full squads. If in the case posted there had been previous instances of less than 40 lanes being occupied when smaller squads could have been combined then allocating less lanes in the future should be expected. Where there is to be a one lane or two lane courtesy next to the annual or any of many events we promoted and ran for seniors, adult/juniors, mixed, officers, league average champions and more, I would make sure the desk person understood that there should only be open play bowlers assigned to those nearby lanes who understood lane courtesy and behavior that would not bother the tournament entrants. if those kinds of bowling were not available they would just have to wait until lanes opened up away from the tournament. Unless tournament directors are paying for all the lanes regardless of whether they are used or not there is no reason why they should expect centers to have dark lanes when they may be getting less than full price for the bowling in the first place. Staying away from prime times during the day and prime times during the year are other things that should be considered if the entire center is to be blocked out with the possibility of some lanes having to go dark. Don Gates
No Don I just copied it as it was from the website I mentioned.
Don if the center in question does not want to compete with the other centers in the area for the tournament then why does it just not pass on the tournament as the author has suggested? Regardless of what you think low ball bidding is a good way for league and tournament bowlers to get the best rates possible. It is also a good way for certified bowlers to discover which centers truly value them as customers.
Let's be clear that the center in question is a Brunswick corporate house and that it is not a sponsor of the tournament at all. The only interest that the house in the tournament at all is income so if it can generate more income in other ways perhaps it should focus only on that market and allow the other centers who might appreciate the tournament income to host it.
A tournament participant should be able to expect a certain amount of lane courtesy, and if that is a problem for the host center then perhaps the host center should ask itself if it really wants to host the tournament.
When the tournament begins if there are available lanes there is no reason that the host center could not put them to use as long as they are able to that insure tournament participants get the respect that they deserve as competitiors. If they do not want to bother with hosting the tournament at all there are other centers that would welcome the opportunity to do so. I believe the author of the article mentioned the center Lightning Strikes allocated the full house for multiple shifts and did not have a problem with having their recreational bowlers wait until lanes were available.
Don I cannot help but notice that you have no comments at all about the average caps.
skullpants, I think average caps are a great idea if the goal is to have as many teams as possible competitive. There are problems with caps that I think should be resolved by adding to caps a 100% minus handicap for teams that go over the cap during the course of the season. If you have a cap it is likely many teams will be under it but it also likely some will be over it. In a scratch league there is not much you can do for the teams under the cap but you can for those over the cap.
Skullpants, you might have added to your love of low ball bidding that sometimes low ball bidding comes from centers with the least to offer in ways other than low prices. The bottom line is that where host centers and local associations work together there are few problems that cannot be resolved. There is no good reason to force on centers the use of more lanes than are needed and no need for centers to not respect their league and tournament bowlers by placing bowlers next to them that are aware of, advised and prepared to honor lane courtesy. If there are no such bowlers then at least one or even two pairs should remain open for leagues and tournaments until someone shows up that can do so. So long as that is done I see no need to have any open lanes at all between leagues or tournaments.
prunenow: So long as that is done I see no need to have any open lanes at all between leagues or tournaments. Don Gates Don Gates
So long as that is done I see no need to have any open lanes at all between leagues or tournaments.
Bill, open breakdown pairs are nice for the bowlers not so nice for centers who probably have them for their leagues only because they cannot fill them. Leagues or tournaments who want them might be able to buy them from the centers, say $20 per hour for each lane they want open would be a fair price don't you think?
Where there is not a good communication and cooperation between tournament directors and centers I have seen occasions where a center is expecting a full house and finds out there are only a handful of entrants instead, tournaments, like the NYS Tournament who have only enough entrants for a few full squads on a couple of weekends but stretch it out for a couple of months which would have taken ten times the entrants to fill the reserved lane beds and the host center may be turning away business opportuinities.
I don't know how many total entries there are for the tournament mentioned in the article skullpants copied and posted but I think if there was a consolidation agreement, possible release of squad times rather than running many partial squads, the host center might be more agreeable if they knew all or most of the lanes would be used, not ten lanes of the 28 instead of 40 they reserved.
Don Gates.
Hello All,
Our league Sec calls all the team captains from the previous year about 3 wks before we start. It is nice to get the phone call and be able to find out what is happening before going to the meeting. The personal touch is nice and maybe it helps. We have kept a minimum of 20 teams in this league for 8 years and have had 24 the last 2 now.
People leave for all reasons but it is still the easy conditions that people i talk to have left because of. I still think it is a bigger reason then you think though maybe not the number 1 reason.
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prunenow: Bill, open breakdown pairs are nice for the bowlers not so nice for centers who probably have them for their leagues only because they cannot fill them. Leagues or tournaments who want them might be able to buy them from the centers, say $20 per hour for each lane they want open would be a fair price don't you think? Where there is not a good communication and cooperation between tournament directors and centers I have seen occasions where a center is expecting a full house and finds out there are only a handful of entrants instead, tournaments, like the NYS Tournament who have only enough entrants for a few full squads on a couple of weekends but stretch it out for a couple of months which would have taken ten times the entrants to fill the reserved lane beds and the host center may be turning away business opportuinities. I don't know how many total entries there are for the tournament mentioned in the article skullpants copied and posted but I think if there was a consolidation agreement, possible release of squad times rather than running many partial squads, the host center might be more agreeable if they knew all or most of the lanes would be used, not ten lanes of the 28 instead of 40 they reserved. Don Gates.
Why would a league need to rent a pair of lanes to use in case of a breakdown? If the league bowler is unable to attend his weekly session he still has to pay for the lineage. If, on the other hand, the proprietor is unable to fulfill his obligations to the league because his equipment has had a breakdown why should he get a free ride? It is not like I can claim that I shouldn't have to pay lineage for my league if I were to break a shoelace on my bowling shoes when I am putting them on. Should I get a free ride if my car has a breakdown on the way to my league?
How is this for good communication Don? If a proprietor expects to be guaranteed lineage, shouldn't he be able to guarantee that the equipment is working properly? If it is not working properly and he does not feel it necessary to toss out a few open bowlers he should be prepared to start hand spotting pins in order to fulfill his obligation.
As I understand it the tournament is hosted by all the centers within the association in a rotation order. The house in question could forfeit their rotation if they did not wish to bother with having to host the tournament. Perhaps the reason that the alley does not forfeit their rotation is because they no longer fill the entire house with open play on the weekends like they once did. Could it be possible that the magic number of 28 lanes is the average number of lanes that it can no longer fill?
skullpants, of course you should not have to rent lanes you want as a buffer, no more than a center should be forced to provide it for free. As for guaranteeing machines will always work that just ain't possible but I think centers have a pretty good record of not having to deal with it very often on machines that are pretty darn well built. In fact, in all the years I have bowled I have never been unable to complete a league or tournament series, sometimes on one lane, sometimes waiting for another pair to finish but got it done.
I have a feeling, skullpants, if the center providing 28 lanes had a breakdown they could not fix they would indeed make arrangements for another pair by perhaps asking open play bowlers to go to the lounge and have a drink and maybe on a pizza on them while waiting for those or other lanes to become available.
P.S. can you say your dependable auto has never let you down, your dependable furnace, air conditioner, water heater, lawn mower has never let you down? I don't think the machine has been invented yet that can't break down.
Grimreaper,
Thanks for your reply, and I am delighted your secretary is doing his/her job and even increasing the league numbers. Too many do not. One of the stats USBC also publishes for us peons is the numbers of certified leagues each year. They decrease each year. The number of centers as well.
My point is there are a LOT of things that we (local associations & members) can do to aid in retaining our numbers at our level. Most involve supporting and assisting our league officers and, as a direct by-product, the centers where we bowl.
Do you not agree with me that it would be helpful if your secretary, for instance, had access to a list of individual dropped bowlers in your area who bowled for a period of time, but did not bowl last year, in order to possibly build a couple of more teams next summer/fall or to fill potential vacancies?
As you point out, people walk away from certified leagues/teams for many reasons. One "reason" I hear a lot for those individuals not joining another league or team is "no one asked me".
I believe every bowler who did not return this year should get both a phone call and a written invitation to return, along with an opportunity to tell us why they left to start with..
prunenow: skullpants, of course you should not have to rent lanes you want as a buffer, no more than a center should be forced to provide it for free. As for guaranteeing machines will always work that just ain't possible but I think centers have a pretty good record of not having to deal with it very often on machines that are pretty darn well built. In fact, in all the years I have bowled I have never been unable to complete a league or tournament series, sometimes on one lane, sometimes waiting for another pair to finish but got it done. I have a feeling, skullpants, if the center providing 28 lanes had a breakdown they could not fix they would indeed make arrangements for another pair by perhaps asking open play bowlers to go to the lounge and have a drink and maybe on a pizza on them while waiting for those or other lanes to become available. Don Gates P.S. can you say your dependable auto has never let you down, your dependable furnace, air conditioner, water heater, lawn mower has never let you down? I don't think the machine has been invented yet that can't break down.
Don, my point is that league and tournament bowlers should be considered preferred customers over open play. Alleys with management who feel that league and tournament bowlers do not come first do not deserve the support of league and tournament bowlers. League and tournament bowlers should only support proprietors who demonstrate that they value the certified bowler above the walk in open play participant.
Breakdowns do occur. That is the point. How the situation is handled after the breakdown is what is in question. As a league bowler I guarantee that my lineage will be paid if my dependable auto lets me down.
