skullpants, are you saying if the lanes break down and you are inconvienced you should not have to pay for lineage? If you are out of warranty and a part breaks down in your car that should not you should not have to pay to have it fixed if you are beyond warranty coverage?
So far as open lanes are concerned I think more times than not there are open lanes with no need to require them and if they are used the center makes an effort to have those lanes occupied by bowlers who will not disturb the flow of bowling for tournament bowlers. It is easy to come up with worse case scenarios where there is a kids birthday party occupying those lanes next to tournament bowlers but I doubt if that happens all that often, if at all.
frank_britt:As you point out, people walk away from certified leagues/teams for many reasons. One "reason" I hear a lot for those individuals not joining another league or team is "no one asked me".
There are many reasons as to why people leave their leagues. But using "no one asked me" as a reason not to find another league? It may very well be a reason, but as the various reasons go, this one is the weakest.
Does anyone ask you to go to the store to get yourself food? Does anyone ask you if you need use the restroom? Did anyone ask you to put in your application for the job you are in? We are presumably talking about adults here.
If someone REALLY wants to bowl they will find a league. HE/SHE will inquire at the local centers to find out if any leagues have openings. HE/SHE will check with their friends to see if any of them need a bowler. If someone cannot do this, they simply do not want to bowl...hence, they are not really a BOWLER.
prunenow: skullpants, are you saying if the lanes break down and you are inconvienced you should not have to pay for lineage? If you are out of warranty and a part breaks down in your car that should not you should not have to pay to have it fixed if you are beyond warranty coverage? So far as open lanes are concerned I think more times than not there are open lanes with no need to require them and if they are used the center makes an effort to have those lanes occupied by bowlers who will not disturb the flow of bowling for tournament bowlers. It is easy to come up with worse case scenarios where there is a kids birthday party occupying those lanes next to tournament bowlers but I doubt if that happens all that often, if at all.
Don...that is a weak and not a similar argument. If you own the car, it is your problem. In the instance Skull mentioned, bowlers are renting the lanes. In this case, your analogy should have been...you rented a MetroCar for a night out, on the way it breaks down...do you REALLY think that MetroCar will not be reimbursing you for the lack of service and inconvenience you endured?
As for worse case scenarios...Don, be honest. They are presented because they DO happen. People don't make these things up.
no offense don but i've seen this scenario happen on several occassions. in fact one of those times i was bowling.
grimreaper,
What your sec. does is nice but it does nothing to attract new teams or new bowlers. If we don't start attracting new blood soon competitive bowling will be dead and gone.
eaglehunter, at one time many centers had program directors who did lots of calling to those who had quit bowling and got many of them back because someone called them and offered them something they could buy into. Telemarketing was common to thousands and thousands of non bowlers persuading them to try the game, many did and some stayed. Leaving it up to 'adults' who want to bowl to take the first step is not a very good marketing idea even if it is free.
As for breakdowns they sometimes happen and sometimes have to be made up which is an inconvenience but not one demanding free bowling as payment for that inconvenience and I don't think many demand that knowing that there are some things the center owner cannot control even those with very good maintenance programs
As for the right to demand open lanes next to leagues or tournaments and let the center 'eat' the potential loss in revenue I don't think individual centers who don't look out for their customers are not all that common enough to demand all of them comply with those kinds of requests.
Don Gates
I will buy into the idea that bowlers are lost because no one asked them to come back. It is such a simple thing to just invite them to return. I wonder why it is that no one takes the time to do just that. Could it be because no one really cares if they come back or not? Could it be that bowling has become a not so important part of our daily lives? I can tell you this. If bowling were important to me I would be on the phone every day inviting others to bring their little fleece covered butts back, but since it is not I have better things to do with my time. The bottom line is that the best way to grow bowling is to find a way to offer a product that the customer wants to buy, and apparently the currently offered product is not filling the need.
skullpants, Frank said much the same thing. The tools are there to call those who have quit and offer them something else if their reasons are solvable. Every association office has an orphan bowler list that may go back several years as did the one I used in making 17,000 calls and bringing back over 400 men and women.
Just this week I was talking to a center gm who was 120 bowlers down and losing more with no shows. I told her about the availability of that list from the local association. Actually an individual with the gift of gab could probably make a good buck, expecially in larger asociations with a big list, by contracting with centers for a commission for each new bowler. Since the former bowlers are all former customers the no call national listing would not apply.
prunenow:Every association office has an orphan bowler list that may go back several years as did the one I used in making 17,000 calls and bringing back over 400 men and women.
Don, I am curious. You made 17,000 calls and brought back 400 bowlers. How many additional bowlers did you lose that year? Was the net effect a membership loss or gain?
Eaglehunter, like so many other associations we suffered net losses just about every year since 1981. Before that there were years where there were even more quitting but those coming in during the years of the introduction of automatic pin spotters, automatic scoring and family friendly bowling centers outnumbered those who tried it and quit for one reason or another.
There were not 17,000 completed calls, many of them had moved or died, changed to unlisted numbers or just were not home when we called from 6 pm to 8:30pm. I think we would have had far more returning if we could have provided solutions to what could have been solvable problems. Just shorter leagues and ongoing coaching available would have made a big difference then and now.
Every year there are lots of men, women and children coming into the game and keeping more of them in the game would make a big difference. There are many men, women and children who would try the game if they were contacted and offered soemthing the could afford and enjoy. Getting them back, keeping newcomers in and bringing newcomers to the game is an objective that shouild and could be pursued with good bottom line results to justify the costs when borne by those who will profit the most from success with the help of volunteers who will profit the least.
The Kegel's John Davis called me years ago to set up a meeting with bowling centers for a presentation he wanted to make. I got a good turnout and what he wanted to sell was the value of targeted mailing by zip codes to various age groups/ income groups/ ethnic groups/ families with different age children and to new comers moving into the community which was not all that cheap but very possible. The only one who brought into it, and were very successful with it, was the district director for Brunswick.
The partnership with BPAA and non member centers/USBC national to be successful has to begin with the building of a much better bottom floor partnership at local levels of BPAA and non member centers/USBC and other for profit partners who support bowling. Without that solid first floor there can be no solid 2nd (regionals) or third floor (national level).
EagleHunter: frank_britt:As you point out, people walk away from certified leagues/teams for many reasons. One "reason" I hear a lot for those individuals not joining another league or team is "no one asked me". There are many reasons as to why people leave their leagues. But using "no one asked me" as a reason not to find another league? It may very well be a reason, but as the various reasons go, this one is the weakest. Does anyone ask you to go to the store to get yourself food? Does anyone ask you if you need use the restroom? Did anyone ask you to put in your application for the job you are in? We are presumably talking about adults here. If someone REALLY wants to bowl they will find a league. HE/SHE will inquire at the local centers to find out if any leagues have openings. HE/SHE will check with their friends to see if any of them need a bowler. If someone cannot do this, they simply do not want to bowl...hence, they are not really a BOWLER.
Eaglehunter,
Our net loss, this year, in certified bowlers, was over 126,000 individuals. That means we actually had probably well over 200-250,000 leaver and we recruited enough new members to keep the net loss to 126,000.
Your above argument comparing bowling choices to the necessities of life is almost completely irrelevant to the problem. The economic argument (bowling costs too much, incomes are down, dues are up, etc) is stronger if you want to discuss macro reasons we can do little about at our local levels.
USBC is spending millions at the national level of its members' dues and national tournament revenues allegedly to address the membership problem under the theory that if the general public comes to regard bowling as a "true sport" the membership problem will miraculously be solved.
My comments are, and were, more directed to things we can do something about at the level we all function at as local association members and volunteers.
If the attitude of our members and associations is or becomes "I don't care about anyone but the "real" bowlers and "real" bowlers are those that ....................................(insert your definition here)" then the bleeding is likely beyond repair.
I think there is entirely too much of that attitude out there now. My attitude is that "real bowlers" are the over 2,000,000 dues paying certified USBC members we have left, many of whom have stuck with us through years and years of mismanagement, poor decision making, and being taken for granted at every level, and particularily at the national level.
The first step in restoring our numbers has to be to stop the membership bleeding at the local levels.
That is probably the single thing Don Gates and I agree on.
Too many words already....later.
Frank Britt
prunenow: skullpants, Frank said much the same thing. The tools are there to call those who have quit and offer them something else if their reasons are solvable. Every association office has an orphan bowler list that may go back several years as did the one I used in making 17,000 calls and bringing back over 400 men and women. Just this week I was talking to a center gm who was 120 bowlers down and losing more with no shows. I told her about the availability of that list from the local association. Actually an individual with the gift of gab could probably make a good buck, expecially in larger asociations with a big list, by contracting with centers for a commission for each new bowler. Since the former bowlers are all former customers the no call national listing would not apply. Don Gates
Don,
The question that comes to my mind immediately is, of course: "Why is it that someone from the local association did not hear that question and supply that answer"?
Someone is not communicating. Several someones in this instance, excluding you. (you do so very well)
Frank
My signature line applies.
Frank, my reason why many of the solvable reasons for dropping out are not resolved remains the seeming inability for local associations, centers and local outlets of for profits who do business with and support bowling to meet, plan, jointly finance and implement local programs and support national programs for good bottom line reasons for all.
A simple thing like putting together an ongoing coaching program available for entry level and better bowler who want to get even better should be in place all over this land but is not, maybe not in your association where there may or may not be an ongoing promotion to introduce non bowlers to the game with a plan on how to greet, train and keep them once they give it a try.
It is obvious from looking at junior Saturday morning junior programs that there is poor retention, especially as boys and girls get into junior high and beyond, poor improvements year to year in skill levels yet the programs remain pretty much the same. There is no way most junior and high school boys and girls can find the time in their busy schedules for long term junior leagues but many might be able to fit in an 8 to 12 week program but it is not available to them; is it available in your association?
Frank, you mentioned plans for your state association to do what regionals you don't like would do. If there is a national marketing campaign introduced is there men and women at state level who know all the center managers, all the association execs, all the radio, tv, newspaper sports and business folks, along with advertising rates. Do they have a volunteer list for recruiting local volunteers for specific chores they are capable for and willing to do? Are they capable of coordinating support in North Carolina's 100 centers and multiple associations? If not, do you expect national to do it for North Carolina from Texas?
Frank, we just need a better top to bottom system that begins with a better system at local levels for natonal to build on.
Frank,
If you truly believe that the 2.5 million members are conscious, active, and willing participants in the organization that is USBC, I would have to seriously wonder what Don has slipped you. I know that you are smarter than that.
To imply that the 2.5 million members left have stuck it out despite the various issues you listed is simply untrue and naive. The vast majority of members (and past members) have little to no interest or understanding about the administrative side of their own league, let alone their local, state, or National association. If answering a survey, I sincerely doubt that a majority of current or past members would list: 1) years and years of mismanagement, 2) poor decision-making, or 3) being taken for granted as reasons for leaving or giving consideration to leave USBC.
I contend that a majority (perhaps only 51%) of our bowlers would NOT be certified if given the choice. Many bowlers show up for the 1st night and just ask "what do I pay," and are consequently told "x" for league fees, "y" for certification. But how many of these know what they are getting by becoming members, or more importantly, why they are becoming members? Come to think of it, what are they getting? Since most leagues, on average I would assume, have been around for awhile, things probably stick close to the status quo...meaning, if they were certified previously, they will be again. Do you honestly think that many of our members are having discussions during their league meetings debating the benefits of certification? Pick "Joe Bowler" down the road and ask "what do you get for your USBC membership?" The response will probably be...[insert crickets chirping]..."wait I know, a card."
If membership was switched to an individual basis, rather than a league-wide basis I think we would instantly approach that 1 million number that Roger Dalkin was continually ridiculed for a couple of years ago. THE FUNDAMENTALS OF OUR MEMBERSHIP ARE NOT STRONG! I would suggest that our membership numbers are over-inflated, perhaps way over-inflated. Too many of our members joined because they did not have a choice. Their league was to be certified, so they were to be certified.
Let me be clear about something...I want USBC to have as many members as possible. However I want them to be interested, active, and willing members. I don't want "Joe Bowler," who is on my league to have a night out with friends but otherwise isn't remotely interested in bowling, as a member because more than likely he doesn't want to be one either. And if not for the "one certify, all certify," he would not be a member. To say that we are working for him is disingenuous. Working for what? His goals and interests as it pertains to bowling? He doesn't have any. Now...hopefully you won't try to pull a Don on me and say that this person doesn't exist (like Don doesn't believe that houses put birthday parties and open bowlers next to tournaments without regard for the tournament bowlers), because we all know that he does. This type of person is probably much more common than anyone, USBC included, would care to admit. Should we still try to convert him? Absolutely, but we shouldn't force him to become a member until he is convinced there is a valid reason for him to do so.
As for "real bowling"...well, I just finished reading an interesting response from Joe Schumaker (outgoing BPAA Pres) who said that while the PBA is good for bowling, it is the BPAA and its leagues that conduct "real bowling." That was good for quite a laugh, especially since BPAA played a large part in getting us to the point we are at now. Simply put, bowling is bowling. Real bowling, in my opinion, is bowling as a sport which would encompass the PBA, USBC Nationals, Sport/PBAX leagues, scratch competition, and the like. It involves bowlers being active members of an organization (presumably USBC) that works to preserve the Sport. Your run of the mill handicap league is recreation. Obviously to the BPAA "real bowling" is whatever put money in their pockets, which is obviously why they don't feel the PBA is "real bowling." Which side are you on? Both are needed, but for different purposes and with different goals.
As for the bleeding...I agree that it needs to stop. While I do think that going after past members is necessary, I still believe that keeping the current members should be the foremost task for any Local, State, or National organization. What good is putting more fish in the net, if the net has a gaping hole that you cannot see? Once the hole is fixed, then you start putting in the new fish and maybe finding some that got away.
Sorry for the length...looks like I pulled a "Gates." Just kidding Don.
prunenow: Frank, my reason why many of the solvable reasons for dropping out are not resolved remains the seeming inability for local associations, centers and local outlets of for profits who do business with and support bowling to meet, plan, jointly finance and implement local programs and support national programs for good bottom line reasons for all. A simple thing like putting together an ongoing coaching program available for entry level and better bowler who want to get even better should be in place all over this land but is not, maybe not in your association where there may or may not be an ongoing promotion to introduce non bowlers to the game with a plan on how to greet, train and keep them once they give it a try. It is obvious from looking at junior Saturday morning junior programs that there is poor retention, especially as boys and girls get into junior high and beyond, poor improvements year to year in skill levels yet the programs remain pretty much the same. There is no way most junior and high school boys and girls can find the time in their busy schedules for long term junior leagues but many might be able to fit in an 8 to 12 week program but it is not available to them; is it available in your association? Frank, you mentioned plans for your state association to do what regionals you don't like would do. If ther
Frank, you mentioned plans for your state association to do what regionals you don't like would do. If ther
