EagleHunter:

Frank,

If you truly believe that the 2.5 million members are conscious, active, and willing participants in the organization that is USBC, I would have to seriously wonder what Don has slipped you.  I know that you are smarter than that.

To imply that the 2.5 million members left have stuck it out despite the various issues you listed is simply untrue and naive.  The vast majority of members (and past members) have little to no interest or understanding about the administrative side of their own league, let alone their local, state, or National association.  If answering a survey, I sincerely doubt that a majority of current or past members would list:  1) years and years of mismanagement, 2) poor decision-making, or 3) being taken for granted as reasons for leaving or giving consideration to leave USBC.

I contend that a majority (perhaps only 51%) of our bowlers would NOT be certified if given the choice.  Many bowlers show up for the 1st night and just ask "what do I pay," and are consequently told "x" for league fees, "y" for certification.  But how many of these know what they are getting by becoming members, or more importantly, why they are becoming members?  Come to think of it, what are they getting?  Since most leagues, on average I would assume, have been around for awhile, things probably stick close to the status quo...meaning, if they were certified previously, they will be again.  Do you honestly think that many of our members are having discussions during their league meetings debating the benefits of certification?  Pick "Joe Bowler" down the road and ask "what do you get for your USBC membership?"  The response will probably be...[insert crickets chirping]..."wait I know, a card."

If membership was switched to an individual basis, rather than a league-wide basis I think we would instantly approach that 1 million number that Roger Dalkin was continually ridiculed for a couple of years ago.  THE FUNDAMENTALS OF OUR MEMBERSHIP ARE NOT STRONG!  I would suggest that our membership numbers are over-inflated, perhaps way over-inflated.  Too many of our members joined because they did not have a choice.  Their league was to be certified, so they were to be certified.

Let me be clear about something...I want USBC to have as many members as possible.  However I want them to be interested, active, and willing members.  I don't want "Joe Bowler," who is on my league to have a night out with friends but otherwise isn't remotely interested in bowling, as a member because more than likely he doesn't want to be one either.  And if not for the "one certify, all certify," he would not be a member.  To say that we are working for him is disingenuous.  Working for what?  His goals and interests as it pertains to bowling?  He doesn't have any.  Now...hopefully you won't try to pull a Don on me and say that this person doesn't exist (like Don doesn't believe that houses put birthday parties and open bowlers next to tournaments without regard for the tournament bowlers), because we all know that he does.  This type of person is probably much more common than anyone, USBC included, would care to admit.  Should we still try to convert him?  Absolutely, but we shouldn't force him to become a member until he is convinced there is a valid reason for him to do so.

As for "real bowling"...well, I just finished reading an interesting response from Joe Schumaker (outgoing BPAA Pres) who said that while the PBA is good for bowling, it is the BPAA and its leagues that conduct "real bowling."  That was good for quite a laugh, especially since BPAA played a large part in getting us to the point we are at now.  Simply put, bowling is bowling.  Real bowling, in my opinion, is bowling as a sport which would encompass the PBA, USBC Nationals, Sport/PBAX leagues, scratch competition, and the like.  It involves bowlers being active members of an organization (presumably USBC) that works to preserve the Sport.  Your run of the mill handicap league is recreation.  Obviously to the BPAA "real bowling" is whatever put money in their pockets, which is obviously why they don't feel the PBA is "real bowling."  Which side are you on?  Both are needed, but for different purposes and with different goals.

As for the bleeding...I agree that it needs to stop.  While I do think that going after past members is necessary, I still believe that keeping the current members should be the foremost task for any Local, State, or National organization.  What good is putting more fish in the net, if the net has a gaping hole that you cannot see?  Once the hole is fixed, then you start putting in the new fish and maybe finding some that got away.

Sorry for the length...looks like I pulled a "Gates."  Just kidding Don.

Eaglehunter,

Thanks, again, for a great response.  You are correct that the average league bowler will not (and should not have to) be deeply involved in the nuts and bolts details of what we do as volunteers in local associations.  My point is they pay the bills.  Since that is a fact, they should get their money's worth and that "money's worth" should be apparent to them.  That it is not is the fault of their associations and their (association's) volunteers.

The set of standard specifications for equipment and rules for the sport are worth the 16 dollars they cost me each year, not to mention the awards that remain available, and the standard mechanism for enforcing both the specs and the playing rules, bonding, etc.  It should be the job of association volunteers (house reps, association directors, association officers, etc) to attend those league meetings and briefly inform the leagues of the value to them of certification.  In far too many cases, that doesn't happen (thus Joe Bowler's response).  If the league doesn't grant the time at the meetings, a flyer to each bowler could be done.  Most would end up on the floor, but we would be at least making an effort.

It still remains a fact that a great percentage of our membership got into certified bowling because someone invited them, whether it was a proprietor's employee, a friend, a company or other organization's league. etc,  It my case it was a church league in Houston, Texas when I was about 14 (I am 67 now).  Just waiting for people to walk up and sign up for a 32 week commitment is not good enough any more.  The numbers for the past 25 years or so prove that.

I agree with your final paragraphs.  What we, as an organization, need to do is "all of it".  We need to retain our members by making them aware of the value of certification.  We need to provide those members with leagues and tournaments that provide competition at multiple skill levels for them (tiered membership, etc), schedules that match their needs, some level of coaching (in co-op with proprietors), entry level and junior competition, etc.

The list goes on and on.......Your "real bowlers" need to be involved in all of that if they want the sport to survive.  Right now, not a heck of a lot of them are involved in the trenches that make up league bowling and its organizations at the local levels.

You call "real bowlers" those who go to nationals every year?  You take away those certified league bowlers who attend every year and never cash, and the "nationals" would fold and disappear.  The national tournaments are supported by Joe and Jane, just like our leagues are.

I am on the "side" of certified, organized, amateur, bowling and its membership.  It has levels, and each level has its requirements that need to be met by the larger organization.  Understanding those needs, and meeting them, is something that is not happening, and has not been happening for a long time, in a large majority of our associations at every level.

Yep, the average handicap league, particularily the mixed ones, have a large recreation and social component.  My association, in spite of several real attempts we have no sports leagues (because our "real" bowlers will not participate in them), and only a couple of scratch leagues.  Currently there may only be one...I am not sure this year....Again, not enough "real" bowlers I guess.  We do have about 40 or 50 bowlers who go to the national tournament though.......and a few with PBA cards.....

Oh well.....I still maintain that every one of my association's certified bowlers are participating in the "sport of bowling", just as every golf, tennis, or softball player who participates in those organized, certified sports are "real" participants.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and yours is just as good as mine any day of the week.

Better, probably, 'cause there's no doubt you would clean my clock on the lanes with a bowling ball, just as Earl Chase has done for years without ever even breaking a sweat.  He participates in the sport at one level and I participate at another.  The organization is, and should always be a "big tent" that covers all different levels equally.

Frank

Eaglehunter,

I answered your Sat, Sep 20 2008 12:42 AM: post, but the moderator seized it.  It will show up sometime I reckon.  Thanks for your reply to mine.

Frank

Hey Frank!  Good to see you back.  I was beginning to get worried.

Frank, you have a blank slate (new center) to work with just as I hope BPAA/USBC treat their newly formed partnership as a blank slate and don't fill it with any of what needs to be discarded because it no longer or never worked well.

I had one opportunity to do that with the one and only new center built in Syracuse during my stay there.  The bulder was the same person who ran the 16 lane center and was literally clueless about how to build his business, assuming the business of a closed 8-lane center getting him off the ground.

In your discussions with your new owner, who may or may not have a bowling background, you also have the opportunity to bring on board the local outlets of vendors who will want to do business in that bowling center, the soda/beer/hard stuff/snack bar stuff/ vending machines/ etal distributors could and should be contacted and their financial support entlisted and the use of their other outlets as promotional tools to contact and bring in the casual and non bowling men,women. youth; bring in a grocery receipt for the purchase of a product for free bowling/free coaching kind of thing.

Good luck with it!!!

Don Gates

Seeing as it is quite a ways from your own center where you bowl, it would also be a good time to discuss with your center and the new one getting into the elementary schools with an inschool bowling program for phys ed teachers to include in their school year of activities.

Eagle Hunter, Saving your comments about reasons to certify for another post as it has been discussed many times, I think al that you are looking for can be found in Sport Bowling membership, an organization that could serve all the men, women and youth who are interested in participating in bowling as a competitive sport.  Are you personally engaging in sport bowling on more competitive bowling conditions?

It needs lots of work to make it what it should be, including the elimination of extra membership costs, friendlier, less costly ways for centers and bowlers to participate in leagues and far more activities available, many of them linked to state and national championships.

Many of your other comments are yours,  shared by and not shared by many others.

Don Gates 

Frank,

You say that average bowler "pays the bills."  But is he/she "paying the bills" much like the thousands of donators to Nationals (a point of contention with Don)?  With the possible exception of the awards program, USBC would still be providing the remainder of what you listed regardless of membership levels.  To suggest though that members should be excited that their fee pays for standards and specifications?  Many of these standards and specifications have been the same for a long time.  What's worse...to be completely honest, don't you think that if BPAA wanted to it could just as easily provide these services...at NO charge to the bowler (at least no charge that they would see since it would probably be included in lineage fees)?

Some BPAA centers already do awards.  Equipment standards and specifications...BPAA has arguably more pull than USBC, so they could adopt/modify what currently exists while working on new standards/specs with the industry.  Playing rules...since so many of us (at least based on conversations on these boards) feel the rules need a complete rewriting, BPAA could cover that too.  The point is that USBC cannot hang its hat on these "same old politics as usual."  These are NOT benefits to the average bowler, let alone for a long-standing accomplished bowler, or a brand new bowler.

I think you may have misspoken when you said "It still remains a fact that a great percentage of our membership got into certified bowling because someone invited them, whether it was a proprietor's employee, a friend, a company or other organization's league. etc."  I think a great majority are introduced to ORGANIZED bowling by invitation, but not necessarily certified bowling.  Once introduced to organized bowling by invitation, if said organized league is to be certified then said bowler MUST be certified whether he/she wants to be or not.

As for the "real bowlers" statement...I never said anything about that in my post.  I did talk about what I thought was "real bowling" and referenced a back and forth between the PBA (presented by Lyle Zikes in the Aug Bowlers Journal) and the BPAA (rebuttal by Joe Schumaker in Sept Bowlers Journal).  In my opinion, "real bowlers" are those that look for opportunities to bowl and support this great sport.  Do I think that Joe Bowler, who only bowls in his once-a-month league so he can socialize with friends, is a real bowler?  No I don't.  If he chose to go to a bar once-a-month instead would we call him a barfly?  Look, if he sees benefit in joining USBC then great, I welcome him with open arms and hope that he decides to broaden his bowling horizons.  However, I honestly think he's only a USBC member because he HAD to be, not because he WANTED to be or saw real value in it.

USBC should reexamine and implement, much sooner than later, a tiered membership option immediately.  Nationals should also consider changing its format as well.  I honestly cannot believe the number of people that come out their as "Regular" teams that go out and shoot less than "Classfied" squads.  USBC has created (with the help of BPAA) this way out of wack average issue.  If USBC wants to allow Adult Bumper Bowling averages for Nationals, then put out the same type of shot.  Otherwise, some type of system (slope rating scale or something similar) needs to be created to help make things right.  Should the 220+ typical house bowler (who goes out and shoots 1600 for AE) really be competing with any of the "real" 220+ bowlers?  Obviously not.  The people that travel to these tournaments are "real bowlers" and they should be treated with some respect for supporting these events.  The vast majority having ZERO, ZILCH, NADA chance is not right.

I think overall we are both on the same page and share many of the same sentiments.  I will agree to a point that all certified members are participating in the "sport of bowling," the caveat being that today the "sport of bowling" has various levels and most participate on the lower end of the sport spectrum.  We do represent different ends and ideas of the sport and how things should be done, but that it was makes this discussion so worthwhile.

Don,

USBC is an organization, Sport Bowling a mere faction within it.  You already know that, so I'm not sure what you were getting at with regard to your 1st statement.

Sport bowling in my area, there are some leagues.  In most cases it is cost prohibitive, at least for me.  $25-30 a week for fees, plus additional one time fees for lane checking, plus the Sport membership fee, plus mandatory pots (for some leagues)...not to mention that most are at not-so-favorable times or days of the week.  I used to bowl in the sport league that Dan Ottman put together...sadly, after his death the league folded and in its place were things similar to that described above.  Dan's leagues often were bereft of any money, as he believed, succeeding on the condition was the reward.

We do agree that the current program needs VAST improvement.

As for whether my comments are shared by many or not...as Frank opined before many of the "better" bowlers have no interest in the adminstrative issues that face the game.  They simply want to show up and bowl.  I can guarantee you that there are MANY that share my sentiments...just because they do not post here does not mean they don't exist.

EagleHunter, probably better than 80% of the certified bowlers have no interest in doing anything more than bowling in their once a week league, no interest in bowling in any tournaments at all.  While it is true much of what they get for the $10 they send to national as a certified bowler is also shared by many who bowl in uncertified leagues and don't pay anything at all to support what others are willing to pay for.

It is accepted as a given that the lanes will be consistent so far as physical specs all over this land, the pins will be consistent, the bowling balls will be within specified specs, the rule book will cover just about everything for those who are not certified but that might not be true at all if USBC was to go under and BPAA assumed their role.  It is pretty expensive for centers to abide by the rules and there just might be some cost cutting, expecially for the many centers not members of BPAA who would have noone to answer to.

For the certified bowlers who do like to bowl in a few tournaments even though they are not all that great the loss of USBC and with it the loss of certified bowling averages , local, state and national events now run by those associations, bonding protection, awards, someone to turn to when there are problems.  Maybe some belong to classified tournament organizatons which run monthly tournaments they like to bowl in once in awhile.  For them the $10 they send to national gives them a few more benefits.

For the very good bowlers, if USBC was to go down what would happen to high school leagues, collegiate conferences and all their tournaments, international competition and so much more.  How would youngsters enter bowling and develop the skills to populate all this?  Is not keeping all this alive and well worth contributing $10 a year even if you don't bowl. I know I contribute far more than $10 to many organizations I gain no personal benefit from.  I think if you are right and men, women, youth would not support certified bowling if they got no perceived benefits from it the numbers would be more like 500,000 and probably much less.  However I think many who do not get many personal returns are not all that reluctant to support bowling and would continue to do so as they do now, those who want a free ride are already getting it.

For the 10 to 15% of the men and women who take their bowling seriously, work hard to be the very best I see no reason why what they want in the way of increased competition on competitive conditions governed in ways that do not apply to the other 85% using the same $10 they send to national, plus the profits generated from running events like the Junior Gold national and USBC nationals, commissions from sale of rings and watches to mostly these 10 to 15% percenters and other income producers possible when the very best talent is involved.

EagleHunter, I don't think the 85% need anything more in benefits for their $10, what is needed is a better menu opportunity for those 85% who also represent the bulk of dropouts,  A menu that can slide easily into  busy schedules that is mostly fun while being competitive , nickel, dime, quarter poker action kind of thing to keep the weekly costs down.

If bowling can find a way to ween the 10 to 15% out of leagues  where the 85% dwell I think both have a chance to thrive and survive.

 I also do not agree that there is any widespread placement by bowling centers of birthday parties and other disruptive events next to certified tournaments.  It happens but I think it is a small minority, not a vast majority.  I also think the majority of bowling center owners  want to run their businesses well (which means keeping their customers happy and coming back), make a good profit, live in nice homes, drive nice cars, send their kids through college while also doing  quite a bit to support bowling and their communities in many ways that cost them money and time.

That's the kind of bowing community I spent many years in doing things I could never have accomplished without the support of many bowling centers.  I was involved in countless tournaments and never had to deal with centers insisting on placing disruptive bowlers on the lanes next to lanes I used.

Don Gates

Don Gates

EagleHunter,

Thanks for a great conversation.  I agree that we are both pretty much on the same page and if we bowled in the same area would be working together to support and build bowling there.

There are huge differences between Detroit and my rural part of North Carolina, but certified bowling in both face many common problems that we share with all other areas of the country.

I agree about the tiered system, and encouraged and participated in several discussions (very good ones) here about it.  In fact, Gary Sparks (VUBOWL) led a great thread on it not too long ago  and devoted a great deal of time and effort to the subject.  I never heard a word from our leadership about it after that.  Sadly.

Today, we lost another 343 certified bowlers.  We will lose the same number every day this year, and that (and worse) has been happening for well over 25 years.  It is sad that our membership does not hear them at every league meeting, and at every annual meeting, is it not? 

Frank Britt

whiteoak:

Hey Frank!  Good to see you back.  I was beginning to get worried.

Thanks Bill,

My "plate" has been pretty full for a while, and we have been traveling a bit, along with the fact there have been few real discussions I felt compelled to join lately.

Been substitute teaching in our local middle schools some, and those calls come very early in the AM, and I mostly read these threads/posts late at night......... 

Frank

prunenow:

Frank, you have a blank slate (new center) to work with just as I hope BPAA/USBC treat their newly formed partnership as a blank slate and don't fill it with any of what needs to be discarded because it no longer or never worked well.

 

I had one opportunity to do that with the one and only new center built in Syracuse during my stay there.  The bulder was the same person who ran the 16 lane center and was literally clueless about how to build his business, assuming the business of a closed 8-lane center getting him off the ground.

 

In your discussions with your new owner, who may or may not have a bowling background, you also have the opportunity to bring on board the local outlets of vendors who will want to do business in that bowling center, the soda/beer/hard stuff/snack bar stuff/ vending machines/ etal distributors could and should be contacted and their financial support entlisted and the use of their other outlets as promotional tools to contact and bring in the casual and non bowling men,women. youth; bring in a grocery receipt for the purchase of a product for free bowling/free coaching kind of thing.

 

Good luck with it!!!

 

Don Gates

Seeing as it is quite a ways from your own center where you bowl, it would also be a good time to discuss with your center and the new one getting into the elementary schools with an inschool bowling program for phys ed teachers to include in their school year of activities.

 

Don, You are correct in that our new center is a very blank slate right now.  No one there (or at least very few) have a bowling background.

I will be bowling there.  Since I am the director at large assigned to the center, I feel obligated to do so, and our Operations Manual requires that as a practical matter, although not as an absolute requirement.  It's pretty hard to see how I could speak for the membership there and represent the bowlers there to the management and the association without at least bowling most of my league games there.

This will, in fact, be a interesting and busy year here for certified bowling.

Frank

Frank,

     I agree with you that it would be VERY helpful if the secretary had a list of dropped bowlers in the area who had bowled before. If not to possibly create a new team to at least help a team fill up. A couple of years ago i had a bowler drop out 3 weeks before we were to start. I called the secretary for some help in filling the spot but he had no names for me. Only that we could wait and see if someone showed up at the meeting and we would also leave a note at the counter that a bowler was needed. We have a team this year still needing a bowler. In both cases it would be great to have a list of people to call.

   Grim.....

prunenow:

EagleHunter, probably better than 80% of the certified bowlers have no interest in doing anything more than bowling in their once a week league, no interest in bowling in any tournaments at all.  While it is true much of what they get for the $10 they send to national as a certified bowler is also shared by many who bowl in uncertified leagues and don't pay anything at all to support what others are willing to pay for.

 

It is accepted as a given that the lanes will be consistent so far as physical specs all over this land, the pins will be consistent, the bowling balls will be within specified specs, the rule book will cover just about everything for those who are not certified but that might not be true at all if USBC was to go under and BPAA assumed their role.  It is pretty expensive for centers to abide by the rules and there just might be some cost cutting, expecially for the many centers not members of BPAA who would have noone to answer to.

 

For the certified bowlers who do like to bowl in a few tournaments even though they are not all that great the loss of USBC and with it the loss of certified bowling averages , local, state and national events now run by those associations, bonding protection, awards, someone to turn to when there are problems.  Maybe some belong to classified tournament organizatons which run monthly tournaments they like to bowl in once in awhile.  For them the $10 they send to national gives them a few more benefits.

 

For the very good bowlers, if USBC was to go down what would happen to high school leagues, collegiate conferences and all their tournaments, international competition and so much more.  How would youngsters enter bowling and develop the skills to populate all this?  Is not keeping all this alive and well worth contributing $10 a year even if you don't bowl. I know I contribute far more than $10 to many organizations I gain no personal benefit from.  I think if you are right and men, women, youth would not support certified bowling if they got no perceived benefits from it the numbers would be more like 500,000 and probably much less.  However I think many who do not get many personal returns are not all that reluctant to support bowling and would continue to do so as they do now, those who want a free ride are already getting it.

 

For the 10 to 15% of the men and women who take their bowling seriously, work hard to be the very best I see no reason why what they want in the way of increased competition on competitive conditions governed in ways that do not apply to the other 85% using the same $10 they send to national, plus the profits generated from running events like the Junior Gold national and USBC nationals, commissions from sale of rings and watches to mostly these 10 to 15% percenters and other income producers possible when the very best talent is involved.

 

EagleHunter, I don't think the 85% need anything more in benefits for their $10, what is needed is a better menu opportunity for those 85% who also represent the bulk of dropouts,  A menu that can slide