Doctor Doom:Yes Don, as in all things, the ways to make it work are many. However the desire to make it work, is another thing. That desire is not there. you are correct, all we are, are talkers, the doers gave up a long time ago. What will it take for the doers to try again. IMO it is not bowling councils, kiosks, scratch tickets, and other such gimmicks. What it will take is a vison, a vision that is shared by all bowlers, a renewed sense of pride in the game, a feeling of integrity. I think this starts at the top, not at the bottom, like you believe. In this economic crisis, are people looking to their City, and State governments for a solution, I don't think so. USBC National should be grabbing the bull by the horns, and they are not.
Dear Doctor Doom:
There is much wisdom and perception in your words (quoted above).
Doctor Doom: What it will take is a vison, a vision that is shared by all bowlers, a renewed sense of pride in the game, a feeling of integrity.
What it will take is a vison, a vision that is shared by all bowlers, a renewed sense of pride in the game, a feeling of integrity.
...except that "vision" is shared by probably less than 5% of sanctioned bowlers. The other 95% want to knock down pins, eat a pizza or burger and have a cold beer or soda.
...pride and a feeling of integrity only seems to be realized by the "old schoolers" who desire the return to yesteryears scoring pace.
...most of us here are old schoolers who adapted to what the game has turned into, but dont like where it's at. But we still do it because we like to bowl.
Bill Taylor spent most of his life and money for 48 yrs, pining to keep the game pure, with resistance at every turn from the "powers that be" to no avail. Who thinks the "suits" in charge now are going to do anything different than the "suits" before them?
RJN825: Doctor Doom: What it will take is a vison, a vision that is shared by all bowlers, a renewed sense of pride in the game, a feeling of integrity. ...except that "vision" is shared by probably less than 5% of sanctioned bowlers. The other 95% want to knock down pins, eat a pizza or burger and have a cold beer or soda. ...pride and a feeling of integrity only seems to be realized by the "old schoolers" who desire the return to yesteryears scoring pace. ...most of us here are old schoolers who adapted to what the game has turned into, but dont like where it's at. But we still do it because we like to bowl. Bill Taylor spent most of his life and money for 48 yrs, pining to keep the game pure, with resistance at every turn from the "powers that be" to no avail. Who thinks the "suits" in charge now are going to do anything different than the "suits" before them?
...bowling will be around for a long time to come. (or until all of us diehards are dead) Just probably not in the form that the "purists" desire it to be. Sport bowling has been around for a long time already without many takers. The days of the competitive bowler are dwindling and I dont see a big resurgence anytime soon. The PBA may be on deaths door though if they cant come up with any significant sponsors. They're grasping at straws to try and keep the fans interested.
Just like on the PBA forum, there are a few handfuls of bowlers who just yak back and forth during the day debating the issues and repeating their stance on the issues. Go to bed and do it all over again the next day. # of problems solved or set in motion to solve=0.
.....we're just dreamers and this is our place to talk about all the things we have no power to accomplish as we are not the bowling industry, but the puppets of the bowling industry.
RJN825: ...bowling will be around for a long time to come. (or until all of us diehards are dead) Just probably not in the form that the "purists" desire it to be. Sport bowling has been around for a long time already without many takers. The days of the competitive bowler are dwindling and I dont see a big resurgence anytime soon. The PBA may be on deaths door though if they cant come up with any significant sponsors. They're grasping at straws to try and keep the fans interested. Just like on the PBA forum, there are a few handfuls of bowlers who just yak back and forth during the day debating the issues and repeating their stance on the issues. Go to bed and do it all over again the next day. # of problems solved or set in motion to solve=0. .....we're just dreamers and this is our place to talk about all the things we have no power to accomplish as we are not the bowling industry, but the puppets of the bowling industry.
Have any of you secretaries started to see bowlers dropping out, due the the financial crunch???
Randy/Doom, nope, don't think all is lost. The vision I see the need for at national levels is how to get the fragmentation, leadership in the hands of older men and women replaced with a much better top to bottom system that has a youthful look to it since it is the youth who have the energy to 'walk the walk' that older men and women may lack even if they have good intentions.
I don't think there is anything BPAA/USBC national leaders can do without a better system in place. With no ability to command just what can they do that can make a difference with limited resources to work with to do it? If there had been a better system in place back in the 70s when bowling was growing there would be far fewer problems today.
If the bowling councils I lobby for were in place to support corporate sponsors at local levels, sold at national levels, bowling would have retained far more than they have been able to which is close to zero for the long term. If these bowling councils worked together to support PBA/PWBA and tv shows at local levels the local shows would still be in place and professional bowling strong on cable and maybe even on network tv, along with other prestigious bowling events. All it takes is 'walk the walkers' and likely it is the youth that have to be drafted and given an opportunity to do their thing which may or may not be what older folks think they should be doing.
If USBC cannot somehow break through the forever old system of the same men and women doing it all as officers of local association offices for decades, BPAA the doing it alone for the most part by bowling centers then you might be right about there being no way to halt the slide. To expect national, which may also lack youthful exuberance, to do it is just asking far too much. The slowing and reversing of the slide has to begin with a better system at local levels.
Don Gates
Just watched the women bowl on tv. Is that the vision you were looking for? I don't think Feldman is going to draw many new viewers, especially men. Neither will a 147 game from the other girl. Go back to the 5 men...
prunenow: Randy/Doom, nope, don't think all is lost. Don Gates
Randy/Doom, nope, don't think all is lost.
...I agree and didn't say all is lost in my post. I do believe that like everything else, things change. The heyday of bowling is long gone never to return. It's pointless to list all of society's technological advances that gave people other options of entertainment to pursue instead of bowling. (it's been brought up umpteen times already)
It's still a great recreational activity but lets face reality shall we? Some magnificent bowling revival will occur about as soon as hell freezes over.
prunenow: Randy/Doom, nope, don't think all is lost. The vision I see the need for at national levels is how to get the fragmentation, leadership in the hands of older men and women replaced with a much better top to bottom system that has a youthful look to it since it is the youth who have the energy to 'walk the walk' that older men and women may lack even if they have good intentions. I don't think there is anything BPAA/USBC national leaders can do without a better system in place. With no ability to command just what can they do that can make a difference with limited resources to work with to do it? If there had been a better system in place back in the 70s when bowling was growing there would be far fewer problems today. If the bowling councils I lobby for were in place to support corporate sponsors at local levels, sold at national levels, bowling would have retained far more than they have been able to which is close to zero for the long term. If these bowling councils worked together to support PBA/PWBA and tv shows at local levels the local shows would still be in place and professional bowling strong on cable and maybe even on network tv, along with other prestigious bowling events. All it takes is 'walk the walkers' and likely it is the youth that have to be drafted and given an opportunity to do their thing which may or may not be what older folks think they should be doing. If USBC cannot somehow break through the forever old system of the same men and women doing it all as officers of local association offices for decades, BPAA the doing it alone for the most part by bowling centers then you might be right about there being no way to halt the slide. To expect national, which may also lack youthful exuberance, to do it is just asking far too much. The slowing and reversing of the slide has to begin with a better system at local levels. Don Gates
Doom, yep, it is a dream and I refuse to accept the premise that things will never change. I have beat the drums over and over for many failures but not always a failure.
Though it is not the way I would have liked it to be I beat the drum for years, with a minority of others, for a classified division and lo and behold what would never be is now a reality. I beat the drums for years for an amateur division for the now USBC Hall of Fame and, with another minority, finally triumphed and it came to be. It has been taken away. I refuse to accept it and are right now renewing a beating of the drums for a return of the amateur division and in inclusion of regional PBA members in that division.
Doom, it makes no sense for bowling to forever more have a fragmented local system with men, women, youth, bowling centers all doing their thing separately. It makes no sense for local associations to have poorly attended annual elections that result in the same men and women serving for decades doing it all when their all is not good enough. So, at every opportunity, without hijacking other threads if at all possible, continue to beat the drum for what I think is an essential for future success for bowling as a sport and to grow as a recreation. Doom, I fully intend to win this battle because it makes so much sense for me to do so.
Don has been saying the same things over and over since I joined the forum, and still he can find no one willing to walk the walk that he wants them to walk. It is because nobody cares Don. If bowling was something that bowlers could take pride in rather than just a number on a corporation's spread sheet it might be possible to find people who care enough about the game to put time and effort into it. Not even the bowling industry cares enough to invest any effort into the game that they themselves have brought to this point.
I disagree that the age of involvment is gone. Look around and you will see that everyone is just looking for something important enough to be a part of, something that can hold their short attention spans. Somewhere along the line a large number of parents forgot to teach their children how to be adults, how to accept responsibility for their shortcomings, and how to cherish the accomplishments that they have to work hard to achieve. Don't look at me, because I taught my children these lessons. My children are not bowlers.
Somewhere along the line the bowling industry forgot that they had to provide their customers with a product that the customer wants to buy at a price that he is willing to pay for it in much the same way that American auto makers kept trying to sell products that were inferior and unwanted in a competive global market. Instead it decided to cheapen the product and raise its price until the product became such a poor value that it began to wither away which even further diminished its value. As the bottom lines fell to new lows the bowling industry began to use creative accounting methods to continue to show profits in a dwindling market, in much the same way the banking industry gave loans to people unable to repay so that the bottom still looked better than it actually was. Of course you can only finance an artificial profit for so long and then when the bottom finally falls out it is a more devastating blow.
Why should bowlers invest time and effort into something they hold little value for at a time when they have more important problems to deal with? It is not going to happen and the bowling industry only has itself to blame.
D.M.: Just watched the women bowl on tv. Is that the vision you were looking for? I don't think Feldman is going to draw many new viewers, especially men. Neither will a 147 game from the other girl. Go back to the 5 men...
I have to agree with Dennis on this one. That match was a real nail biter until the second or third frame. Actually watching Michelle Feldman pound the stuffing out Missy who really did not stand much of a chance on that condition was like watching a wolf versus sheep match at the local center.
prunenow:Doom, it makes no sense for bowling to forever more have a fragmented local system with men, women, youth, bowling centers all doing their thing separately. It makes no sense for local associations to have poorly attended annual elections that result in the same men and women serving for decades doing it all when their all is not good enough. So, at every opportunity, without hijacking other threads if at all possible, continue to beat the drum for what I think is an essential for future success for bowling as a sport and to grow as a recreation. Doom, I fully intend to win this battle because it makes so much sense for me to do so.
Dear Don:
Regardless of how much you "beat the drum" and "intend to win the battle," you are dreaming if you intend to do so in this forum.
D.M, Unless USBC/BPAA can work together to come up with a much better top to bottom system that will utilize and build on the star value of the very best men and women bowlers it will not be going back to five men, rather going back to nuttin cause without the support USBC/BPAA is capable of providing, for good bottom line reasons,the very rich owners of the PBA will someday pull the plug.
I don't think there is a long term shelf life for women's bowling as a one game part of the PBA tour but costs of doing it for USBC are probably less than for the series tied to the Women's Open and the goal is to get corporate support picking up the bills. It is my view that a week to week professional tour for women at centers willing to support them is not going to come back and,like the PBA tour, only worked as long as it did with the willingness of John Summers to bankroll it because he believed it important for women to have a show of their own; and, bowling centers willing to host and accept substantial losses to do so. When he was inducted into the USBC hall of fame he talked far more about the need for bowling to get the women back on national tv than of himself.
As for this past week it was pretty obvious that stroker Missy had her condition messed up in the first three games and so did power player Michelle but not as badly, neither able to perform as they did to make the show. For those who want to watch the best women bowlers do their thing watching Michelle is a pleasure, to watch women who are not power players but do it right there is plenty of enjoyment in watching the best women bowl and more often than not the winners are not decided until the final frame as often as it is with the men. For those who watch only to see a fashion show with good looking women more important than the bowling then Michelle is not for them; ditto for viewers who prefer a Brian Voss to Jason Couch.
There is no doubt that women in all professional sports are not going to be as popular on national tv as are the men but that does not mean there is not a place for them, a good enough audience for them, and I think the bowling community if they get their act together can provide that good enough audience to warrant corporate support and take advantage of the name value of the men and women to persuade more youth and adults to bowl. With no men and women on national television, no promotion of local shows to create local men and women with name value the task is made much more difficult.
D.M., Discussions on important issues with different views expressed need not have clear 'winners' to have value. Different view discussions with men and women taking the time to digest opposing views and while thinking about them come up with supportive posts of their own views are read by men and women in a position to 'walk the walk' To get both sides clearly expressed in a civil tone might have influence beyond anything winning or losing an argument between the handful of posters on Bowl.com can achieve.
prunenow: D.M, Unless USBC/BPAA can work together to come up with a much better top to bottom system that will utilize and build on the star value of the very best men and women bowlers it will not be going back to five men, rather going back to nuttin cause without the support USBC/BPAA is capable of providing, for good bottom line reasons,the very rich owners of the PBA will someday pull the plug. I don't think there is a long term shelf life for women's bowling as a one game part of the PBA tour but costs of doing it for USBC are probably less than for the series tied to the Women's Open and the goal is to get corporate support picking up the bills. It is my view that a week to week professional tour for women at centers willing to support them is not going to come back and,like the PBA tour, only worked as long as it did with the willingness of John Summers to bankroll it because he believed it important for women to have a show of their own; and, bowling centers willing to host and accept substantial losses to do so. When he was inducted into the USBC hall of fame he talked far more about the need for bowling to get the women back on national tv than of himself. As for this past week it was pretty obvious that stroker Missy had her condition messed up in the first three games and so did power player Michelle but not as badly, neither able to perform as they did to make the show. For those who want to watch the best women bowlers do their thing watching Michelle is a pleasure, to watch women who are not power players but do it right there is plenty of enjoyment in watching the best women bowl and more often than not the winners are not decided until the final frame as often as it is with the men. For those who watch only to see a fashion show with good looking women more important than the bowling then Michelle is
As for this past week it was pretty obvious that stroker Missy had her condition messed up in the first three games and so did power player Michelle but not as badly, neither able to perform as they did to make the show. For those who want to watch the best women bowlers do their thing watching Michelle is a pleasure, to watch women who are not power players but do it right there is plenty of enjoyment in watching the best women bowl and more often than not the winners are not decided until the final frame as often as it is with the men. For those who watch only to see a fashion show with good looking women more important than the bowling then Michelle is
